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  • Matthew Schroeder
    Matthew Schroeder closed this thread because:
    Old
    09:58, July 6, 2017

    Spider-Man is rated at High 8-C in our wiki, and Iron Fist as "At least High 8-C". This is completely innacurate.

    Spider-Man has performed this feat:

    http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/spider-man-feat-spider-man-saves-the-hulk.22488/

    Whose realistic Mid-End is 1.271 kilotons.

    And he has survived a nuke, albeit it nearly killed him:

    https://forums.hero-academia.com/xfa-blog-entry/spidey-tanks-a-nuke-calc.33958/

    166.8828361 kilotons

    As for Iron Fist:

    His Iron Fist is compared to a Hydrogen Bomb

    He deflects and tanks a speeding train filled with explosives to "Make Hiroshima look like a sparkler", and which would destroy all of Kun-Lun

    He's tanked attacks from Radion , and punched through his armor. Radion's power was measured up in hundreds of megatons .

    His speed is also lowballed. He can react and move in a micro-second. Assuming he moved 1 meter in 1 microsecond:

    1 meter / 1.0e-6 seconds = 1000000 m/s. Or Mach 2915.4519

    Spider-Man and characters who scale need to be changed to Town level, and Iron Fist to City level.

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    • I'm uncertain regarding Spider-Man, though it's possible and I'm not necessarily against it. I'd like to see what others think.

      City level Iron Fist seems fine.

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    • Not really sure what's going on in the first one. Math for the realistic end looks good (if lowballed), but I'm going to need the context.

      Second one was mostly disproven by Chaos Theory in the comments. If it's an actual Nuke, and if he was at the epicenter of it, then I suppose Town level is fine.

      Not sure why stopping a train filled with bombs would count as a Town/City level feat.

      Radion could be referring to Megatons of force and not Tons, but I dunno. Could be legit, I'll see what others think. Not sure if Force can be converted into Tons, but I recall someone saying that a Megaton of Force is roughly in the Kiloton of TNT range, so if that's true, he'd be at least Large Town.

      Speed seems okay from a glance.

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    • He seems to have destroyed the train and contained the explosion.

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    • @Dark

      The Iron Fist Train explosion was calced at 2.4 megatons.

      And it is Megatons of TNT, as Radion was going to blow up all of London, and Iron Fist contained his power.

      Regardless, Spider-Man isn't that far behind Iron Fist.

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    • @Dark

      Radion talking about Megatons of force wouldn't make sense, as he is comparing himself to a hydrogen bomb and was going to perform destructive feats of this level. It's like he's saying "I'm a ridiculously powerful bomb", which makes a lot more sense than "I am a bomb but I really suck".

      Anyway, I think these upgrades look pretty good. This would scale to all characters canonically of their level, yes?

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    • @Azzy

      Yes, they would.

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    • I agree with this upgrade.

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    • Though quick question, wouldn't Iron Fist actually be 7-A? 100 Megatons is the absolute peak of City level, and Radion used the term "hundreds", which would fall under Large City/Mountain level.

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    • They look alright to me if others, including staff, don't mind it.

      Funny thing is that if and/or when this passes, that just puts Carnage back at Tier 7. Just much lower than before. ^^;

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    • @Azzy.

      Aight. Then I agree with him being 7-B/7-A. 

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    • Should Ant see this before the profiles get changed? And who else would this apply to if they do?

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    • @Azzy

      Funny enough, Ghost Rider has two feats of blowing up mountains which were never calced.

      Also, Morbius the Living Vampire has been stated to punch like an H-Bomb . Of course, 7-B Spider-Man is a bit much for me, but it's a good statement and it would scale to Dracula (Who is rated at 9-B due to Handbook, which is hilarious since he's the strongest vampire meaning he's >>> orbius)

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    • Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist, characters who have hundreds of appearances in various issues to town and city level. Based on only five calculations doesn't sit right with me at all, I think we're getting a bit too hasty; I'd prefer if we could actually thoroughly investigate these characters instead of just choosing a handful of feats and going with that.

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    • Tier 7 base Ghost Rider feels so right.

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    • Austrian-Man-Meat wrote:
      Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist, characters who have hundreds of appearances in various issues to town and city level. Based on only five calculations doesn't sit right with me at all, I think we're getting a bit too hasty; I'd prefer if we could actually thoroughly investigate these characters instead of just choosing a handful of feats and going with that.

      We are not being hasty at all. We upgrade virtually every character in fiction from a handful of feats. If there was only one feat, it'd be an outlier, but there 5 to 6 or so. It's pretty acceptable.

      Goku only has 1 Universal-ish feat, and all the other 70+ episoes of Dragon Ball Super portray him as less than Universal. By that same argument, he'd be downgraded.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      Tier 7 base Ghost Rider feels so right.

      He blows up a mountain in this old story.

      And he blows up a mountain of the Himalayas in Ghost Rider vol. 5 #29.

      So yes, 7-A Ghost Rider. Pretty acceptable considering that Fem. Ghost Rider's whole power was said to be capable of destroying a country.

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    • Agreeing with AMM, as Spider Man and the Iron Fist have multiple feats that would contradict what is being proposed as an upgrade, although that Microsecond reaction speed for Iron Fist sounds okay.

      Perhaps someone should compile all the Iron Fist and Spider Man feats to see if any of them would contradict the feats listed above?

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    • "as Spider Man and the Iron Fist have multiple feats that would contradict what is being proposed as an upgrade"

      And so does practically everything else in fiction. What else is new?

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    • You wanna play by quantity of feats? Okay, let's do it with Goku then.

      • Obligatory: Goku getting hurt by bullets
      • Obligatory 2: Goku getting pierced by laser
      • One: Krillin getting hurt by bullets
      • Two: Goku dying to Freeza’s Planetary Explosion
      • Three: Goku Black taking 1 year to wipe out all life on Earth.
      • Four: Vegeta getting hurt by magma
      • Five: Goku needing protection to enter Earth’s core
      • Six: Vegito Vs Merged Zamasu only destroying City Blocks
      • Seven: Mai’s missiles hurting Goku Black
      • Eight: Mai hitting Goku Black with a gun
      • Nine: Trunks killing Zamasu with the power of a barren, lifeless Earth
      • Ten: Vegeta struggling to lift 1,000 tons, even in Super Saiyan
      • Eleven: Whis saying he can’t stop an attack that could destroy the universe
      • Twelve: Goku and Beerus’ “universe busting” didn’t destroy the Earth. Furthermore, the shockwave got stronger the further away it went, which is physically impossible
      • Thirteen: Beyond even that, when at its maximum distance in the Otherworld and the Kaioshin Realm, nothing was being destroyed
      • Fourteen: Beerus and Champa’s 100% fight in the manga only destroyed planets
      • Fifteen: Goku SSJ2 Vs Trunks SSJ2 would have only destroyed the Earth
      • Sixteen: Goku fought evenly with a Fat Buu who slacked for all those years
      • Seventeen: Beerus states that Base Goku at BoG is weaker than Freeza

      See? We can do this type of cherrypicking quantity over quality shit with anything in fiction, but noo, only comicbook characters get this level of scrutiny here.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: You wanna play by quantity of feats? Okay, let's do it with Goku then.

      • Obligatory: Goku getting hurt by bullets
      • Obligatory 2: Goku getting pierced by laser
      • One: Krillin getting hurt by bullets
      • Two: Goku dying to Freeza’s Planetary Explosion
      • Three: Goku Black taking 1 year to wipe out all life on Earth.
      • Four: Vegeta getting hurt by magma
      • Five: Goku needing protection to enter Earth’s core
      • Six: Vegito Vs Merged Zamasu only destroying City Blocks
      • Seven: Mai’s missiles hurting Goku Black
      • Eight: Mai hitting Goku Black with a gun
      • Nine: Trunks killing Zamasu with the power of a barren, lifeless Earth
      • Ten: Vegeta struggling to lift 1,000 tons, even in Super Saiyan
      • Eleven: Whis saying he can’t stop an attack that could destroy the universe
      • Twelve: Goku and Beerus’ “universe busting” didn’t destroy the Earth. Furthermore, the shockwave got stronger the further away it went, which is physically impossible
      • Thirteen: Beyond even that, when at its maximum distance in the Otherworld and the Kaioshin Realm, nothing was being destroyed
      • Fourteen: Beerus and Champa’s 100% fight in the manga only destroyed planets
      • Fifteen: Goku SSJ2 Vs Trunks SSJ2 would have only destroyed the Earth
      • Sixteen: Goku fought evenly with a Fat Buu who slacked for all those years
      • Seventeen: Beerus states that Base Goku at BoG is weaker than Freeza

      See? We can do this type of cherrypicking quantity over quality shit with anything in fiction, but noo, only comicbook characters get this level of scrutiny here.

      The difference is theres alot more canon things in comics then most other medias

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    • Also, I read the Spider-Man Nuke issue. It is indeed a Nuclear Missile.

      Spidey states that it is a Scud Missile, and that if detonated it'd wipe out everyone for miles . Seeing as Scud Missiles typically carry 5 to 80 Kiloton thermonuclear weapons, this makes sense.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud

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    • You would need screenshots for all the claims that you listed I'm afraid.

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    • ... The screenshots are there.

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    • Lina Shields wrote:
      You would need screenshots for all the claims that you listed I'm afraid.

      No offense, but did you read his post? The scans are clearly visible.

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    • Lina Shields wrote:
      You would need screenshots for all the claims that you listed I'm afraid.

      All of them are things that have indeed happened in either the DBS Anime or Manga, I can assure you. 

      I listed them all here to show that there is a clear bias when it comes to comicbooks.

      Edit: Unless you mean my original post, which in that case, wtf.

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    • I am referring to

      Matthew Schroeder wrote: You wanna play by quantity of feats? Okay, let's do it with Goku then.

      • Obligatory: Goku getting hurt by bullets
      • Obligatory 2: Goku getting pierced by laser
      • One: Krillin getting hurt by bullets
      • Two: Goku dying to Freeza’s Planetary Explosion
      • Three: Goku Black taking 1 year to wipe out all life on Earth.
      • Four: Vegeta getting hurt by magma
      • Five: Goku needing protection to enter Earth’s core
      • Six: Vegito Vs Merged Zamasu only destroying City Blocks
      • Seven: Mai’s missiles hurting Goku Black
      • Eight: Mai hitting Goku Black with a gun
      • Nine: Trunks killing Zamasu with the power of a barren, lifeless Earth
      • Ten: Vegeta struggling to lift 1,000 tons, even in Super Saiyan
      • Eleven: Whis saying he can’t stop an attack that could destroy the universe
      • Twelve: Goku and Beerus’ “universe busting” didn’t destroy the Earth. Furthermore, the shockwave got stronger the further away it went, which is physically impossible
      • Thirteen: Beyond even that, when at its maximum distance in the Otherworld and the Kaioshin Realm, nothing was being destroyed
      • Fourteen: Beerus and Champa’s 100% fight in the manga only destroyed planets
      • Fifteen: Goku SSJ2 Vs Trunks SSJ2 would have only destroyed the Earth
      • Sixteen: Goku fought evenly with a Fat Buu who slacked for all those years
      • Seventeen: Beerus states that Base Goku at BoG is weaker than Freeza

      See? We can do this type of cherrypicking quantity over quality shit with anything in fiction, but noo, only comicbook characters get this level of scrutiny here.

      this post above. However, hasn't Spider Man consistently been hurt by characters of lower AP in comparison to his calc that we are scaling from?

      Since that the second calc regarding Spider Man has been rejected, and the calc that I linked has Spider Man's KE at

      Spider Man

      1.271 kilotons. Barely Small Town level.

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    • About Spider-Man:

      Not sure if that's really a feat for Spidey? The calc argues he must've pushed Hulk out of the way before the other ball hit Hulk, but Hulk was already holding the ball at bay. Spidey had to move quick before Hulk's strength failed, but he did not actually have to save him from anything.

      As for the microsecond stuff, I'd like it if we could get more WoG on this, but the only two Marvel writers I know to have commented on it have both said that the word microsecond is used as hyperbole.

      The first and third Iron Fist feats are fine, but stopping a train filled with explosives doesn't make you scale to the explosives any more than lifting a box of grenades makes you Room level.

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    • @Xcano

      It's a feat for Spider-Man because the bomb was travelling faster than escape velocity, and Spidey correctly calced that the second would hit Hulk and they needed to get out of the way. So Spider-Man hurled himself at speeds comparable to the bomb to push Hulk out of the way.

      AKA, Spidey pushed his own mass + The Hulk's at faster than escape velocity speeds. Resulting in the KE seem there.

      The Nuke feat is self explanatory.

      Couldn't give a shit about what the writer has to say. Yes, they say "Microsecond" because it sounds cool and impressive, but in-narrative it means that a microsecond did indeed pass.

      Odd that you are using this argument when you yourself agrees that a "Microsecond" statement means that the timeframe is a Microsecond in the past:

      https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/579pql/which_anime_character_can_exactly_510_616/d8r447t/

      The Kun-Lun feat is important because he nullified the bombs. They exploded and he contained it. It was calced at 2.4 Megatons at Narutoforums, but I can't find the blog.

      So we have:

      • Spidey's KE feat.
      • Spidey barely surviving a nuclear missile. Calc is valid, it is indeed a nuclear missile and not a wave.
      • Spidey comparing Morbius' punch to an H-Bomb
      • Iron Fist's fist being compared to an H-Bomb
      • Iron Fist' train feat, calced at 2.4 Megatons
      • Iron Fist beating a guy whose power output is hundreds of Megatons
      • Luke Cage barely surviving a nuclear explosion
      • Ghost Rider blowing up a random mountain
      • Ghost Rider blowing up a Himalayan Mountain.

      I am arguing for Town level (Or Small Town level) Spider-Man and City Level Iron Fist.

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    • http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Darkanine/Marvel_Comics:_Ultron_Bots_Explosion

      Not sure if this helps, but I just calculated that Ultron Bot calc and got 1.8 Kilotons out of it.

      So somewhere in the Tier 7 range seems okay.

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    • Also.

      Deadpool who is a Tier below the likes of Spidey and Iron Fist is 8-A in durability:

      https://youtu.be/oPQU02g_osw?t=620

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    • @Matt

      Before I even address your points:

      Why in the world did you go through 6 months of my reddit account? That's really creepy?


      As for the rest:

      Spidey states on the page that Hulk broke the bond attracting the two balls, and he then says he gets him out of the way before the other one starts moving again.

      Even if he didn't, it's irrelevant. Hulk had his other hand on the ball, so the amount of time Spidey had to get Hulk out of the way is equal to how long Hulk had until his strength wore out.

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    • "Why in the world did you go through 6 months of my reddit account? That's really creepy?"

      I didn't. I googled "Marvel Microsecond" and that Reddit thread was one of the first things that showed up.

      And no it isn't.

      http://imgur.com/lZELnKN

      First panel: Spidey taunts Hulk to punch the ball.

      Second panel: Hulk punches it. Narration states "The hulk's blow breaks the inertial force of the globe -- sending it hurtling far faster and harder than even his great strength alone could have."

      Third panel: Spidey pushes Hulk out of the way. He states "I've got to get The Hulk out of the way of its twin"

      Fourth panel: "But at least I moved him -- And just in time, too. There goes the second sphere, hot on the tail of the first."

      Spider-Man moved Hulk out of the way BEFORE the second ball went speeding up as well, due to the attractive force between it and its twin. As we can see in the Second panel, the bomb was mere meters away from the Hulk and Spidey was fast enough to push him out of the way in the nick of time.

      The bombs were at least thrown fast enough to break the Earth's Escape Velocity. Thus, this is a KE Pushing feat for Spidey.

      And yes, Hulk was holding the second ball on the first panel, but that has nothing to do with what's shown on panel. Panel states that Spidey had to take Hulk out of the way or else he'd be hit by the speeding bomb.

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    • Here, proof that I didn't read through 6 months of your reddit posts, I have better things to do:

      One.

      Two.

      By chance I decided to check the link it led me to and I found your comment.

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    • "And yes, Hulk was holding the second ball on the first panel, but that has nothing to do with what's shown on panel. Panel states that Spidey had to take Hulk out of the way or else he'd be hit by the speeding bomb."

      Yeah. Think of it like holding a train back, but you're struggling with it. The train will break through your strength eventually, and then it will hit you. That's what's happening here, not that Hulk was going to be instantly hit at 11 km/s.

      There's also the whole deal of acceleration, in that in order for Spidey to need to move so fast we'd have to say:

      • Hulk isn't holding back the force of that ball any noticeable amount
      • The statement of Hulk breaking the intertial force between the two means nothing
      • The ball can accelerate from 0 to 11 km/s in about a meter distance instead of gradually speeding up to meet the partner ball
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    • "That's what's happening here, not that Hulk was going to be instantly hit at 11 km/s."

      No. That's not at all what's being implied nor stated by the narrative. If it was such a simple thing that doesn't require such speed, there would be no need for such a rapid solution from Spidey.

      "Hulk isn't holding back the force of that ball any noticeable amount"

      Evidently, he isn't. If he was Spidey wouldn't reiterate how he rescued him in the nick of time.

      "The statement of Hulk breaking the intertial force between the two means nothing"

      I don't see how it is relevant to this discussion. The following panel clearly shows the ball speeding up much like the first one.

      "The ball can accelerate from 0 to 11 km/s in about a meter distance instead of gradually speeding up to meet the partner ball"

      Was acceleration shown when the first ball was punched? Was such a thing emphasized in the panels? They weren't. Hulk punches the ball and there it goes at a speed needed to break escape velocity. The second ball does the same.

      Spidey rescued Hulk in the nick of time from a bomb moving at at least escape velocity. There is no other way around it.

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    • Spidey comparing Morbius' punch to an H-Bomb

      You would need screenshots for this statement.

      Anyways, going to inspect this screenshot here.

      Spider Man Budge
      • At image 1, we see the Hulk here trying to keep the two globes from colliding with each other [which are matter and anti-matter bombs respectively]
      • At image 2, we see that Hulk literally punches the bomb away with his fist, and it states in that panel "faster and harder than even his great strength alone could have", meaning Hulk used his full power to actually cancel out the attractive force between the two bombs.
      • At image 3, Spider Man tackles the Hulk.
      • At image 4, We see in the panel where Spider Man moves the Hulk out of the bomb's way, which could be a kinetic energy feat from Spider Man, but the issue here is that when Spider Man tackled the Hulk, the Hulk seemed to be visibly affected by it.

      Basically, Spider Man tackled the Hulk hard enough that the Hulk was visibly affected by it, thus this would be an outlier for Spider Man here for being able to affect someone like the Hulk with a physical move.


      Now let's go over the Nuke feat in question, here

      As ChaosTheory stated in the comments below, that is a wave in the ocean, and not an actual mountain. This would make Spider Man's feat here completely invalid, as the size of the explosion would have decreased tremendously compared to said explosion actually happening on a mountain.

      Screenshots for said explosion not occuring on a Mountain:

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    • @Lina

      Did you read my posts? Serious question, because I've shown all the screenshots.

      is Morbius' punch statement

      Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Also, I read the Spider-Man Nuke issue. It is indeed a Nuclear Missile.

      Spidey states that it is a Scud Missile, and that if detonated it'd wipe out everyone for miles . Seeing as Scud Missiles typically carry 5 to 80 Kiloton thermonuclear weapons, this makes sense.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud

      And as I proven, that is a Nuclear Missile. ChaosTheory was wrong. Yes, it is in the ocean and not in a mountain, but it is still a nuclear missile (5 to 80 kilotons most likely) and Spidey was right next to it when it detonated.

      "At image 2, we see that Hulk literally punches the bomb away with his fist, and it states in that panel "faster and harder than even his great strength alone could have", meaning Hulk used his full power to actually cancel out the attractive force between the two bombs."

      At what point is that implied? That happened because The Hulk broke the inertial force between the bombs. Also this Hulk is not angry and mad, but rather casual, and it is important to know that the Hulk's power varies from story to story for a variety of reason.

      " We see in the panel where Spider Man moves the Hulk out of the bomb's way, which could be a kinetic energy feat from Spider Man, but the issue here is that when Spider Man tackled the Hulk, the Hulk seemed to be visibly affected by it.

      Basically, Spider Man tackled the Hulk hard enough that the Hulk was visibly affected by it, thus this would be an outlier for Spider Man here for being able to affect someone like the Hulk with a physical move."

      There are several problems with this logic. First:

      "but the issue here is that when Spider Man tackled the Hulk, the Hulk seemed to be visibly affected by it."

      How is this an issue? The Hulk is still a being with mass that can be affected by basic physics like Newton's Laws of Motion. Hulk was visibly surprised when Spidey pushed him, meaning that the Hulk wasn't even paying attention to him.

      "thus this would be an outlier for Spider Man here for being able to affect someone like the Hulk with a physical move"

      It's not an outlier if he didn't hurt Hulk in the slightest, just pushed him of his balance.

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    • Well, Iron Fist making vague claims of his fist being like a hydrogen bomb should not be taken any more seriously than that he compared it to a star in the same scans.

      In addition, he only managed to stop a train carrying the explosives. The explosion that he triggered was explicitly shown as extremely small, and would have to be calculated in itself.

      Spider-Man tanking part of a nuclear explosion should probably be seen as an outlier, given that he is consistently shown as not being bulletproof.

      Moving the Hulk at these speeds also seems outlier-ish, but I am more uncertain about this part.

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    • Radion might be usable though. I will check through the rest of the thread.

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    • "Spider-Man tanking part of a nuclear explosion should probably be seen as an outlier, given that he is consistently shown as not being bulletproof."

      Well, he's Large Building level+ so I don't think this is any more outlierish for those reasons.

      Also everyone in fiction gets hurt by bullets all the time. The bullet argument is irrelevant.

      As mentioned various times, Iron Fist contained the explosion.

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    • "Well, Iron Fist making vague claims of his fist being like a hydrogen bomb should not be taken any more seriously than that he compared it to a star in the same scans."

      The difference is that he was clearly being poetical in the first instance, while the second was a character statement.

      The train explosion was calced at 2.4 Megatons. It's a City level feat. Consistent with other Iron Fist feats.

      "Spider-Man tanking part of a nuclear explosion should probably be seen as an outlier, given that he is consistently shown as not being bulletproof."

      So? That's just how bullets work in fiction.

      Wonder Woman can Planet Bust, tank barrages of Infinite Mass Punches from the Reverse Flash, survive hits from Ares, but plenty of writers have her need to block bullets with her gauntlets. Spawn is equal to the heart of a star in his weakest form, is unharmed by nukes and fights Solar System level Angels and Demons, yet bullets often pierce his body. Super Buu can tank punches and blasts from Gotenks without any effect to his body structure, but gets riddled with bullets.

      Basically, guns don't kill people, the writer does.

      I don't see what's an outlier about Spider-Man pushing the Hulk, specially when we have so many other feats of similar caliber to support it. 8-A Deadpool, Low 7-C Luke Cage, 7-C feats for Spidey, 7-C to 7-A feats for Ghost Rider (Depending on size of mountains) and 7-C to 7-B feats for Iron Fist.

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    • Well, I still do not think that stopping a train should scale to the explosives supposedly contained within the train. By a strange storybook logic they were never shown as ignited to anywhere near a degree approaching the power that they were claimed to possess, and Iron Fist does not have any mystical forcefield powers that contain explosions.

      Making a statement that "It's like somebody dropped an H-Bomb on the city" should also be taken as unproven hyperbole, especially considering that no destruction remotely approaching that scale was visibly shown.

      The Radion feat should be usable however.

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    • Whether Spider-Man should scale from the nuke depends on if the calculation was accepted by the OBD. If it was, I suppose that I am fine with it.

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    • Why do we need to judge its accuracy by OBD's pages? We're not OBD. We're not officially affiliated with OBD. We need to decide on these things ourselves.

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    • "Well, I still do not think that stopping a train should scale to the explosives supposedly contained within the train"

      Look at the scans:

      [is magnetically attracted to the train like a bullet]. He says that the only way to stop it is by destroying it before it hits Kun-Lun and destroys them.

      [explodes on the air]. In other words, it ignited all the nuclear explosives inside of it.

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    • @Promestein Because that is the procedure by which we accept calculations. Either the OBD has to accept them, or our own calc group members, or both if it seems sufficiently suspicious or controversial.

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    • @Ant

      I will try talking with Darkanime about this. He calculated Luke Cage's explosion. He could do a recalc of Spidey's. I predict that it will also wield Low 7-C results.

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    • @Matthew

      As is stated within the scans that you provided, if the true nuclear explosion had gone off, it would have destroyed all of the immortal weapons, Iron Fist included.

      By a strange storybook logic, all that happened was that the fuel of the train itself exploded. As such, we can only scale Iron Fist from stopping the train in this instance.

      That said, the Radion feat is still likely usable, so it isn't like this particularly matters.

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    • @Ant

      It did go off. The concern wasn't about them, it was about if the train hit Kun-Lun. Iron Fist fixed the situation by destroying the train first.

      "By a strange storybook logic, all that happened was that the fuel of the train itself exploded"

      I'm sorry, but what evidence do you have that that's the case? Nothing implies that it was such. And it makes no logical sense. You cannot even say that the explosion "doesn't appear that big", because there is literally nothing on the panel to compare it to.

      This feat was calced at 2.4 Megatons and accepted at the OBD.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Whether Spider-Man should scale from the nuke depends on if the calculation was accepted by the OBD. If it was, I suppose that I am fine with it.


      OBD has rejected the calculation based on the fact that the size of the explosion is much smaller than the calculation implies.

      EDIT: To explain why the size of the explosion was so small in the second picture that I posted...

      Missile Spider Man

      As the missile in question approached towards the sea, Spider Man jumped off the missile just in time before the missile went into the sea and exploded.

      As for what this means, the ocean would have contained most of the explosion that was caused by the missile, which is why the size of the explosion that is shown in the atmosphere/above the water is not as big compared to said missile going off on land.

      Here is a diagram shown below.

      Spider man explosion

      The scud missile would have destroyed everyone within miles only if said missile had landed on the ground, and not in the water.

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    • If the explosion had been so potent that it made Hiroshima look like a firecracker, it would not just have been a few meters in diameter, and definitely have enveloped the entire surrounding area, so again, we need a calculation of the displayed explosion itself, not an estimation of what it would take to wipe out K'un Lun.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      If the explosion had been so potent that it made Hiroshima look like a firecracker, it would not just have been a few meters in diameter, and definitely have enveloped the entire surrounding area, so again, we need a calculation of the displayed explosion itself, not an estimation of what it would take to wipe out K'un Lun.

      "Not a few meters in diameter"

      We have nothing to go on the size.

      The explosion would have wiped out Kun-Lun, this is why Danny hurls himself into it so that the explosion could detonate in a safe area before reaching Kun-Kun.

      By colliding at full speed, punching the train, he ignited the explosions before the train collided with the intended target. Thus, Iron Fist tanked the full force of the nuclear explosions. 

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    • Iron Fist's allies were standing very nearby when he hit the train, and were not enveloped by the very small explosion. It is irrational to claim that it was comparable to high end nuclear yields.

      I agree with LordXcano regarding that we cannot logically scale from this, as the feat is extremely unreliable. Focus on Radion instead.

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    • "It is irrational to claim that it was comparable to high end nuclear yields."

      I believe it is less logical to assume that the nuclear explosives were magically not detonated when the train exploded. Nothing about the narrative implies that by destroying the train, Iron Fist would impede the nuclear bombs inside the train from detonating. No. Instead, the narrative tells us that Iron Fist did what he did so the train and the bombs inside would explode before reaching the city.

      There are two ways of interpreting this:

      • One: You can analyze what the story states / implies, and go by it.
      • Two: You can ignore what's stated in the plot and go simply by visuals.

      The first approach is objectively better, as it involves analyzing the narrative. By all the information that we're given on panel, we cannot assume that somehow destroying the train beforehand impeded the nuclear explosion. Rather, there is evidence of the contrary. So we should just assume that the size is an inconsistency. The bomb would have destroyed all of Kun-Lun if it reached the destination.

      I believe that this feat, in conjunction with Radion's, and the H-Bomb statement should be put on Iron Fist's profile to showcase his true strength.

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    • Well, again, the visuals only display an extremely small explosion, and, as far as I remember, we were not told that the nukes were detonated, only that Iron Fist stopped a train. That is it.

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    • @Antvasima

      Iron Fist can absorb energy. That's one of his main characteristics. He does it all the time.

      Also, I'm not really sure his allies were near the train when it exploded. It's actually the contrary.

      Danny is in K'un-Lun near the portal. The mobs are in the train station .

      Danny and the train collide at the end of the railroad near the portal . You can clearly see it as they are about to explode .

      Danny lands near the mobs on the train station, far away from the end of the railroad .

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    • Ehh...

      I more or less agree with Matt.

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    • @Lina

      Okay. I suppose that we cannot use the Spider-Man nuke feat then.

      @Mathew

      Well, going by this scan the explosion seems quite small, and his allies seem to have been standing nearby, but if the OBD accepted the feat, I am uncertain.

      I did not know that Iron Fist can absorb different types of energy. I thought that he could manipulate chi, and that's it?

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    • He can absorb most kinds of energy, if I am not mistaken. During his fight with Radion, for instance, he absorbed his nuclear energy blasts. He also absorbed the energy of Master Khan's spells. It seems that Danny can absorb most kinds of energy if it's fired in an energetic way, like an explosion or a ray.

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    • @Ant

      Are you okay with 8-A Deadpool? He has two 8-A durability feats, as calculated by Vivi Ortonier of OBD. And they are not the result of his regeneration, as he came off unscathed and his regeneration is established as taking many minutes to heal simple wounds.

      8-A Deadpool is actually consistent with Low 7-C to 7-C Spidey and Luke Cage.

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    • Hmm. That might change things considerably then.

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    • https://youtu.be/oPQU02g_osw?t=620

      Here are the two calcs.

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    • That is a Deadpool video.

      Anyway, I suppose that we can scale Iron Fist from the train and Radion feats then.

      Spider-Man can probably be scaled from the Hulk feat, given that we use it already, but the nuclear explosion feat seems very unreliable.

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    • I am okay with scaling Luke Cage from his nuke feat, Spidey from the Hulk feat, and Iron Fist from Radion's feat.

      It would mean a Low-End Low 7-C for Spidey and Luke Cage, and 7-B for Iron Fist.

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    • Would it be reasonable to scale Spider-Man and Luke Cage to Iron Fist? The gap isn't too big, and they are consistently shown to be approximate in power.

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    • @Ant:

      • This is the aftermath of the train explosion, where Iron Fist's allies were pretty close to the Iron Fist here
      Iron fist close

      Regarding Iron Fist's energy absorption, it states in the Daniel Rand page of Marvel Wikia that he is able to absorb energy directed at himself and channeled it to augment his own power. This is written in Energy Absorption under the Powers and Abilities section.

      So what Matt is saying here is that the explosion shown to us is smaller than expected because Iron Fist was able to absorb most of the energy from the exploding nukes in the train, therefore drastically reducing the explosion's size.

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    • It seems that these feats along with Captain Marvel ones are going to heavily affect the databooks for the power-scaling, since these feats also applies to all the opponents that fought them. I wonder if this page will be still considered?.

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    • @Lina

      Those werent his allies. Those were the mobsters on the Train Station.

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    • Follow Doctor Freeman wrote:
      Would it be reasonable to scale Spider-Man and Luke Cage to Iron Fist? The gap isn't too big, and they are consistently shown to be approximate in power.

      Iron Fist is way stronger than them, as demonstrated by his superior feats. He has easily defeat Luke Cage and broken out of Spidey's webbing.

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    • Okey dokey, if Iron Fist does consistently outmatch Luke and Spidey, then it is sensible to not bother scaling the latter two to the Iron Fist.

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    • @Dark649

      Given the contradictions of the handbooks, Matthew and LordXcano were previously given permission to start to rescale the Marvel characters by applying something closer to our usual methods.

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    • However, given that I have very limited time and energy nowadays, I would need help with appropriately rewriting the Marvel and DC scaling pages after we are done.

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    • I am 100% willing to help.

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • I'll help, if possible

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    • I can deal with the pages relating to Spider-Man (He's kinda my forte).

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    • @Ever

      Do it. Imma edit Luke Cage.

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    • I can help with some of the x men pages....

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    • Oh i didn't think this was gonna pass today.....ayyyyy~

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    • "That's not at all what's being implied nor stated by the narrative. If it was such a simple thing that doesn't require such speed, there would be no need for such a rapid solution from Spidey."

      You're arguing that Hulk could not hold a ball for literally a few milliseconds more, even though he was holding it for several seconds to a minute just beforehand.

      "Evidently, he isn't. If he was Spidey wouldn't reiterate how he rescued him in the nick of time."

      Hulk was completely negating the force of both balls just before Spidey saved him.

      "I don't see how it is relevant to this discussion. The following panel clearly shows the ball speeding up much like the first one."

      Because in order for Spidey to need to move so fast, you would have to argue that Hulk cannot hold the ball at all (even though he was just 1 panel before) and that the ball can go from 0 to top speed instantly.

      "They weren't. Hulk punches the ball and there it goes at a speed needed to break escape velocity. The second ball does the same."

      The ball can accelerate, it does not need to go at escape velocity.


      "I believe it is less logical to assume that the nuclear explosives were magically not detonated when the train exploded."

      This is not how nukes work. Nukes require a specific set of nuclear reactions to happen in trillionths of a second. The train blowing up would not set them off, nor would dropping a nuke into the sun.

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    • @Xcano

      If Hulk could hold the ball for much longer without any issue, Spider-Man wouldn't have to push him away in the nick of time.

      Again, the bombs didn't demonstrate accelerations. They flew at escape velocity.

      The bombs going that fast and Hulk not being able to hold it is what's shown in the page. Your interpretations are not supported by the text.

      And it doesn't matter if the nuclear explosives need special reactions, because the nuclear bombs in the train would explode when hitting K'un-Lun. Thus, Danny hurled himself towards the train at full force, causing the explosion to occur at a safe distance from the city.

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    • "If Hulk could hold the ball for much longer without any issue, Spider-Man wouldn't have to push him away in the nick of time."

      The problem here is that you're arguing "nick of time" must be some microsecond-scale event. "Nick of time" can also be "one second". I'm not saying Spidey had a whole minute, but I think also that saying it's in the millionths of a second is just as absurd considering the context.

      "Again, the bombs didn't demonstrate accelerations. They flew at escape velocity."

      How do you know they don't accelerate? 

      "The bombs going that fast and Hulk not being able to hold it is what's shown in the page. Your interpretations are not supported by the text."

      Hulk held it for quite some time, he just couldn't hold it for much longer. Why are you assuming that he couldn't hold it for just a single second more when he was doing that for a minute prior?


      "And it doesn't matter if the nuclear explosives need special reactions, because the nuclear bombs in the train would explode when hitting K'un-Lun. Thus, Danny hurled himself towards the train at full force, causing the explosion to occur at a safe distance from the city."

      Can you provide context for this? 

      To be clear, I'm fine with nuke-level Danny. He has plenty of feats to support it. I just don't think that the train feat is the best one to use for it when Radion/Hellicarier/Hydrogen bomb comparison all work just as well.

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    • The bombs didn't demonstrate any acceleration. And considering the manner in which they were thrown, it makes sense.

      The ball was sent flying through The Hulk's punch. The process would be akin to a Baseball pitch, in which the ball is released at maximum speed and slowly loses speed with time. However, the ball was sent flying at escape velocity, meaning that it wouldn't lose speed as it could overcome the planet's gravity.

      As the second ball followed the first at just the same speeds due to their attraction.

      Now Danny's feat.

      Yeah, I can show you more scans from the scene. The villains' plans were basically to blow up K'un-Lun due to the bombs inside the train. They didn't have any detonation mechanism. It would blow up due to the collision.

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    • "The bombs didn't demonstrate any acceleration. And considering the manner in which they were thrown, it makes sense."

      All things have to accelerate unless they have a literal infinite amount of force behind them.

      "As the second ball followed the first at just the same speeds due to their attraction."

      This doesn't follow. The first moving at escape velocity does not mean the second needs to move at that speed instantaneously. It can just as easily increase in speed as it catches up to the first.

      Plus, this is still forgetting the whole thing about Hulk still holding the other ball back. Unless one can prove that he couldn't hold it for even just a millisecond more, there's no reason why "nick of time" can't also mean "just a second before his strength failed".

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    • Everything in the narrative implies that the second ball followed with just the same speed as the first, due to their attractive force.

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    • I think that LordXcano seems to make sense. Perhaps we should withhold the Spider-Man upgrade, use some other high-level speed feat for him than the one we do now, and use the Radion and Helicarrier feats for Iron Fist.

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    • @Ant

      Can I chat with you about this? I don't think you should halt an upgrade completely because one member disagrees with it, specially when 5 Admins and one Bureucrat support it, and this calculation has been accepted in the OBD, even by Endless Mike who is the most knowledgeable debater on Marvel Comics.

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    • I do not have the time to use the chat, but you can send me a PM if you wish.

      Anyway, LordXcano does make good logical points that are very hard to refute.

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    • Still, no offense to you ant, but to revert a stat based on the opinion of one person, when a group of other's support it, doesn't seem right

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    • @Ant

      His points do seem logical, but they do not follow what is shown in the narrative.

      Hulk punches the Anti-Matter Bomb causing it to fly at faster than Escape Velocity speeds, and due to the attractive Force between the bombs the Matter Bomb follows soon at equal speed. Spider-Man succesfully predicts that and pushes Hulk away in the nick of time. The logical assumption here is that Spider-Man would have to move at speeds comparable to, or faster than the bomb.

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    • Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff wrote: Still, no offense to you ant, but to revert a stat based on the opinion of one person, when a group of other's support it, doesn't seem right

      Make that two people.

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    • Well, the others haven't had the chance to read LordXcano's replies yet, and they really do seem to make logical sense.

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    • Will just have to wait tell what they think then first, no need to rush things and make a mess out of it

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, the others haven't had the chance to read LordXcano's replies yet, and they really do seem to make logical sense.

      Should we go by the explanation that sounds smart, but isn't supported by the narrative, or should we go by what is shown?

      Naturally, the later. Once you start making assumptions about slow acceleration that was never shown and would contradict the way the bomb was hit, Hulk holding the bomb for longer despite Spider-Man having to push him away immediately, the attractive force not being nearly instantaneous despite it being like that through the issue, you are clearly trying to force an interpretation that would wield a lower result.

      Said interpretation may be intellectually pleasing, but that is meaningless if not at all supported by what's on page.

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    • Hmm. Well, let's wait and see what the others think then.

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    • Anyway, I noticed that several of the revised Marvel profiles did not have their tier categories updated accordingly.

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    • Really? Then Everlasting must have forgot.

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    • It wasn't The Everlasting who updated these profiles.

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    • It was Cropfist from the looks of it. I noticed a profile that he updated where it was at 8-A when Spidey is, atm, Low 7-C.

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    • Yeah, I think it was Cropfist. I will ask him to fix it.

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    • Don't worry, i'm gonna do it right now.

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    • The profile was just building before the upgrade, so I was uncertain but thought a slightly lower tier could work.

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    • Wow, you finally commented here....

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    • @Cross Okay. Thanks.

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    • NP. Not much else to do along with a few fixes and such i tried to do.

      Assuming we're gonna keep the tierings as is, that's about it for now other than what was talked about here earlier just a few or so hours ago.

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    • Yes, it depends on if the other staff members think that we should go with LordXcano's suggestions.

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    • By the way, since Matthew seems to have started revising the Marvel characters based on feats and consistent power-scaling, rather than the handbooks, shouldn't Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) also be upgraded based on LordXcano's calculation a while back?

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    • I think she should, yes.

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    • Okay. Feel free to adjust her profile then.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:

      Should we go by the explanation that sounds smart, but isn't supported by the narrative, or should we go by what is shown?

      Naturally, the later. Once you start making assumptions about slow acceleration that was never shown and would contradict the way the bomb was hit, Hulk holding the bomb for longer despite Spider-Man having to push him away immediately, the attractive force not being nearly instantaneous despite it being like that through the issue, you are clearly trying to force an interpretation that would wield a lower result.

      Said interpretation may be intellectually pleasing, but that is meaningless if not at all supported by what's on page.

      Panel says it reached the edge of the atmosphere in "seconds" (2?). This would mean the first ball would need to accelerate at some 100,000 m/s^2 on average with the atmosphere being 100 km tall.

      Don't know how long Hulk's arms are, but this is just an approximation right now so I think 1.5 meters would suffice. 

      t = √2d/a = √2*1.5/100,000 = 0.005 s

      100,000 m/s^2 * 0.005 s = 500 m/s

      So yeah, even with the highest possible interpretation of this it's still nowhere near Mach 409/1.27 Kiloton level outputs.

      And this is still all ignoring the fact Hulk could've bought just a little bit more time by holding the other ball, regardless of how little more time he could've done so.

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    • @Xcano

      That is not at all the highest possible interpretation of this. This is simply the highest possible interpretation you can allow yourself to see. If we had any proof of acceleration, you'd be right, but we don't. The ball is send flying at top speed, visibly.

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    • @Matt

      How are you able to determine speed with no reference points in a sequential story?

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    • We can certainly determine it through the nature of the artwork and the way the projectile was fired or the character went flying. Here, Hulk punched the bomb and it went flying at top speed, as seem in the narrative.

      Not once was acceleration hinted at it (Which is also consistent with how the other bomb regained attraction with the first and followed suit at equal speed), but to assume a slow gradual acceleration would be inconsistent with the way the bomb was send. 

      It was a still-standing ball, which received propulsion due to Hulk's punch and was send flying. The way it was propelled is akin to a Baseball or a bullet, rather than a running person.

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    • I'm not saying the ball Hulk hit is the one accelerating, I'm saying the one that goes after it is the one accelerating.

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    • That is just as illogical to assume. The Matter Bomb and the Anti-Matter Bomb were attracted to each other like magnets. While Hulk temporarely broke said force, said force quickly returned and the bomb went after the other at top speed.

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    • Three things:

      • Proof that the force returned so incredibly quickly Spider-Man needed Mach 400 speed to save Hulk?
      • Proof the other ball went at it with top speed instantaneously?
      • Proof that, even if Spider-Man couldn't save the Hulk before the attracting force returns, that Hulk couldn't hold the ball for even just a tenth of a second more despite holding two for about a minute prior?
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    • The attraction is described as irresistable.

      Hulk only held the balls apart for one page and was struggling, and per Spidey's words he wouldn't be able to hold them anymore even if got a little tired .

      Hulk punches it and Spidey pushes him out of the way.

      Given how strong the attractive force between them was, how Hulk was visibly struggling to hold the balls together before, how the ball would just become significantly faster when the attractive force returned, and how Spidey pushes Hulk away a panel after he punches the ball, the assumption that Spidey had to move at such speeds makes total sense.

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    • @Matt

      Okay, but all that proves is that Hulk struggled to hold the balls. I wasn't denying that. I was asking for evidence that Hulk couldn't hold them for even just 0.1 seconds more, and the only evidence you've provided for that is that Spidey had to do it quickly, which could mean anything from "1 second" to "1 nanosecond".


      I also just noticed, you can see the first ball in the panel immediately after Spidey pushed Hulk. It's about some 100-200 m up. Even if we go with the highest end of this calc and say it's moving at 100,000~ m/s that still means Spidey only needed to act in 0.001 seconds as opposed to the some 0.000001 seconds the calc implies.

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    • @Xcano

      I thought you yourself admitted that it's impossible to know the timeframe since each panel is a frozen frame of the scene? Seems a bit disingenous to assume now.

      What it proves is that the attractive force is nearly instanenous, and that as Hulk was struggling to hold them apart when they had less speed, he most certainly wouldn't be capable of holding the remaining ball with the speed increase, which as was said would be attracted to its twin almost instantly. Thus, Spidey had to be moving at comparable speeds to push Hulk away.

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    • @Matt

      When I said that I said there were "no reference points", I then noticed a reference point later on.

      How fast is "nearly instantaneous"? 100 m/s? 1000 m/s? 100,000,000 m/s? Why does Hulk need to hold the ball with the speed increase? he broke the attracting force briefly, he should just be holding the normal weight of the ball. Nothing in the dialogue says it'll go to it's twin "nearly instantaneously", I'd say it could imply the opposite.

      Spidey says:

      "I've got to get him out of the way of its twin!"

      And then says:

      "Just in time, there goes the second sphere hot on the tail of the first."

      Which, to me at least, implies he was aiming to push Hulk out of the way before the bond reforms itself, as he is saying that the second ball is just now starting to move.

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    • @Xcano

      It would logically follow at speeds just as fast as the first ball was moving at. 139,352.4 m/s.

      Spider-Man's dialogue can simply be interpreted as cinematic timing. His perceptions are far faster than an ordinary human. He can think and react in microseconds and dodge Electro's realistic lightning, and it is not unheard for him to have entire thought process in incredibly small time-frames.

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    • @Matt

      With no acceleration whatsoever, meaning it has an infinite force behind it?

      This isn't even cinematic timing. I'm not going "the panel is as fast as it "reads"", I'm saying Spider-Man's dialogue implies that the second ball wasn't moving until he pushed Hulk out of the way.

      Also, Spider-Man's reflexes are at max 40x human level by his own admission.

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    • @Xcano

      That statement from Spider-Man is contradicted by so many feats it's not even funny. 

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    • Does Black Panther, Hawkeye, Wolverine, and other street levelers (who are currently at Wall Level-Large Building Level and Supersonic-Hypersonic) also scale to this as well? (definitely not as Small Town Level for the three I mentioned, but Multi-City Level and the microsecond feats) 

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    • Captain America has a few Multi-City Block level feats, Deadpool has a Multi-City Block level durability feat and they have a bunch of MHS+ feats.

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    • HeroicDefender97 wrote: Does Black Panther, Hawkeye, Wolverine, and other street levelers (who are currently at Wall Level-Large Building Level and Supersonic-Hypersonic) also scale to this as well? (definitely not as Small Town Level for the three I mentioned, but Multi-City Level and the microsecond feats) 

      I can definitely assume wolverine would scale, black panther too, Hawkeyes IDK.

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    • @Darkanine 

      Thank you Dark that answers my questions

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    • @Matt

      How about:

      Combine this with the statements above that "microsecond" tends to be hyperbole? I'd say Spider-Man isn't as fast as you're making him out to be.

      Either way, this is irrelvant, my point was that the only reference point for how fast he pushes Hulk gives us a 0.001 second timeframe, which is a massive downgrade from the less than 10 microseconds assumed previously.

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    • @Xcano

      You seem to just love getting ridiculous low ends like Subsonic Spiderman c:. I can assure you, Spider-Man is Quadruple Digit Mach fast.

      Any feat of Spider-Man being slower than a bullet, arrow or sound is pure bullshit, or failing to catch up a normal guy or react to regular people, is pure bullshit.

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    • And how about:

      Thing reacts to meteors: Mach 163.32

      Captain America vs. Builder ship (reaction): Mach 189.2

      Reed, Ben, and Johnny react to meteors: Mach 251.15 - 9110.65

      Namor swims from Atlantis to NYC: Mach 392.79 - 2356.77 (mid-end Mach 1178.38)

      Hawkeye shoots Imus Champion's bowstring: Mach 438.61

      Hercules throws Executioner: Mach 587.73

      Shi'ar Imperial Guard Smasher trainee daily exercise flight speed: Mach 748 - 1497

      Pineapple Thing bomb throw: Mach 2804.34 - 5608.69

      Scott Lang reacts in a microsecond: Mach 2938.67

      Super-Adaptoid vs. Hank Pym: Mach 2938.67

      Thing plays pinball with asteroids: Mach 3197.23

      Hawkeye and Black Panther dodge girder: Mach 9029.06

      Scott Lang shrinks Future Foundation: Mach 13,659.53

      Monica Rambeau shuts down nuclear reactor: 29.19% c (reaction)

      Hank Pym shrinks out of the way of Doctor Spectrum's blast: 46.98% c

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    • That's a whole lot of non-sourced feats and a whole lot of characters that aren't Spider-Man.

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    • Just showing that Marvel characters being tripple to quadruple digit Mach is pretty consistent.

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    • You didn't source anything though? 

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    • All calculations accepted by the OBD.

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    • They're all here, albeit they don't link the calcs themselves.

      http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/161-comprehensive-speed-scale

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    • I'm sure most, or at least a noticeable portion of them are from Endless Mike, so they'd be easily found by going through his blogs at whatever point. I've found one of them already.

      Anyways, it seems absurd to argue for Spider-Man be Subsonic and use feats of him being tagged by normal people as evidence when he's a vastly superhuman character with precognition and regularly fights someone who manipulates electricity.

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    • @Prom

      I wasn't saying he isn't even Supersonic, I was just saying he is most definitely not consistently quad. digit Mach. Either way, it's completely irrelevant to the feat as I already said.


      @Matt

      Okay, you can say that. I don't doubt the calcs existed. But until you actually link them there's really no way for me to know if you aren't just making it up or misrepresenting things. I'll go through EM's blog anyway.

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    • Then why bring them up if you're not arguing to account for them? Either you treat it as legitimate or you don't bring it up at all.

      I know jackshit about calcs so I can't argue for whether or not the feat we're discussing is legitimate, but it's not like the speed result is remarkably inconsistent with Spidey's speed feats.

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    • @Xcano

      If you don't think Spider-Man is less than Supersonic, why did you bring up feats that are you yourself consider low-end outliers? What method of debating is this?

      "I don't think this character is as high as you say he is so I'll bring up the most outlandshly low feats I can gather."

      Spider-Man is definitely consistently MHS+ and I will prove it.

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    • @Prom

      Because Matt said that Spidey can think in microseconds and such to prove the feat was cinematic timing, which wasn't actually relevant to my argument at all. I decided to show that he isn't consistently MHS+ by any stretch of the imagination.

      Also, it kinda is inconsistent with his other feats? Because this is like, the only feat he has that's that fast. None of the feats mentioned above are feats done by Spidey. As far as I'm aware, this is his sole MHS+ feat while he has many numerous low Supersonic showings.

      ------

      @Matt

      Are you saying that if I want to disprove a claim of Goku being MFTL+ by Saiyan Saga I should bring up examples of him being MFTL+ to disprove them?

      Okay you have fun with that.

      Very important edit:

      I'd still like to point out that even if you proved he was MFTL+ beyond any reasonable doubt that'd still have no bearing on this feat being MHS+/7-C. You would upgrade his speed/keep it the same, but that still wouldn't retroactively prove this feat is 7-C.

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    • Neither are any of his Subsonic or lower feats legitimate, neither is this the only MHS or MHS+ feat by Spider-Man or even slower characters. You yourself should realize that that bunch of feats includes characters slower or comparable to Spider-Man, and you should also realize that arguing for Subsonic Peter by cherry picking the few instances where he can't do basic things like casually beat thugs, catch cars or dodge things slower than bullets is incredibly intellectually dishonest. And your Goku comparison makes no sense, and it's simply strawmaning me.

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    • "Are you saying that if I want to disprove a claim of Goku being MFTL+ by Saiyan Saga I should bring up examples of him being MFTL+ to disprove them?"

      What you're doing is like arguing that Goku's only Relativistic+ and bringing up a bunch of Subsonic feats to prove it.

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    • @Matt

      If you want me to dispell the notion that I'm cherry picking data I can open up a random comic right now and get every single speed feat there.


      @Prom

      Except I didn't say "Spider-Man is Hypersonic here's a bunch of subsonic feats to prove it", I said "Spider-Man is not Massively Hypersonic here's a bunch of subsonic feats to prove that".

      That's not making any claim about what speed he actually is other than "it's definitely not MHS".

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    • @Xcano

      If you don't think Spider-Man is Subsonic, then you shouldn't bring up Subsonic Spider-Man feats.

      It's just like arguing that Spider-Man isn't Small Town level by bringing up him being hurt by bullets, even though he was previously ranked at Large Building level. Or that Hulk can't be Universe level because he was bitten by a python, or that Dormammu isn't High Hyperverse level because he was beaten by Cyclops.

      You are using an example that is vastly lower than even you believe. It'd be akin to me saying "Spider-Man is Massively Hypersonic+, here are five different instances where he dodges literal light / lasers".

      The argument is completely non-sequitur. 

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    • @Matt

      Just to clear things up, I only brought up subsonic/supersonic Spider-Man feats because those are the only feats he has that I am aware of. A good half of them actually came from respect threads. I missed 3 recent calcs I did though.

      And, saying it for a second time now, I wasn't arguing he's subsonic! Just that isn't MHS+. I'm making no claims of speed other than "Not this one".

      If someone says "A human can surivive a grenade to the face" I can point out 100 instances where they get hit by a car and die, but that doesn't mean I don't think humans can't survive a car crash.

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    • If you don't think Spider-Man is only Subsonic or Supersonic, than those feats should be meaningless to you.

      The grenade example is also not a fair analogy, since the argument would basically be "Real Life humans are Wall level", something that is compleyely impossible and has no examples that prove it.

      Meanwhile, "Spider-Man is Tripple / Quadruple-digit Mach" is very reasonable.

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    • @Matt

      That's not proper form. Just because I think JoJo is FTL doesn't mean that I don't also consider the 300 km/h statement and Hol Horse fights. I just try to provide more evidence that they are FTL than evidence that they aren't.

      Human do have (low) Wall level feats. I myself know people who have survived car crashes and put small cracks in concrete with their skulls.

      Do you have any feats that Spider-Man has done that put him at this level though?


      And, as I said before, this is all still completely irrelevant. If you can prove Spider-Man is MHS, go ahead. But that doesn't change the fact the calc is still wrong and thus we can't scale his AP or his speed from it.

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    • You don't use low end outliers to prove something is a high end outlier. You use consistent feats to prove something is a high end outlier. By definition an outlier is inconsistent with the majority of a characters other feats. So to argue for something to be consistent, you wouldn't use inconsistent things to prove the consistency.

      It's like saying Goku surviving attacks from Soul Zamasu is an outlier cause he got hurt by a bullet. It doesn't make sense. Or how about reversing the use of outliers to dispove outliers. "Hulk losing to a gorilla is an cause he shook infinite planets." Just use consistent feats to argue for consistency. It actually proves one's point and doesn't make them look like a downplayer.

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    • I'm currently starting an experiment that may end with Spider-Man having dozens to hundreds of MHS+ feats.

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    • @Ryu

      At which point does a "low-end outlier" become a "consistent feat" though? Especially when he apparently doesn't have any MHS feats to begin with? And why would one need to use "normal feats" (how would you define that anyway) when the opposition could always just say "He's not going all out" or "That's a casual feat"?

      To prove something is an outlier you have to show them struggling with lesser things. Otherwise it isn't an outlier it's just a "better feat".

      And, as I said before, I wasn't even bringing up low-end feats (aside from needing a taxi and failing to catch a criminal), those were literally just his normal feats pulled from a respect thread.

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    • Okay, that's a pretty bad respect thread, then.

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    • @Matt

      It's from someone who read a good amount of his appearances already. About 1/4th of them I think. Mostly modern.

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    • That doesn't prove that they are good debaters. I have a friend who played every single Shin Megami Tensei game in English but the SNES ones, and he didn't think that the series went beyond Universal.

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    • Your friend isn't also actively looking for feats to make SMT as powerful as it can possibly be.

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    • Neither is anyone who reaches the conclusion that SMT is easily 2-A. They are just being good debaters.

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    • At which point does a "low-end outlier" become a "consistent feat" though? 

      Irrelevant to what I am saying. What constitutes a low end outlier and consitent feat is case by case and varies based on context. My point is that you don't use an inconsistency to prove something is consistent. That kinda without saying.

      And why would one need to use "normal feats" (how would you define that anyway) when the opposition could always just say "He's not going all out" or "That's a casual feat"?
      By proving that they aren't going all out or that it isn't a casual feat using the context of these feats. Again, irrelevant to my point that using things you admit are inconsistent to prove something else is inconsistent just doesn't work.
      To prove something is an outlier you have to show them struggling with lesser things. Otherwise it isn't an outlier it's just a "better feat".

      I know that. The problem is when you start using them struggling with lesser things on an absurd scale that makes the low end an outlier as well. Again, like using Goku getting hurt by a bullet to say him surviving Soul Zamasu is PIS. And why doesn't this logic work the other way then? If you can use low end outliers to disprove high end outliers, why can't one use high end outliers to disprove low end ones. "Hulk losing to a gorilla is an cause he shook infinite planets." Is it perhaps that both the low end and the high end are equally ridiculous and shouldn't be argued with? Cause that's what I'd say.

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    • @Ryu

      "Irrelevant to what I am saying. What constitutes a low end outlier and consitent feat is case by case and varies based on context. My point is that you don't use an inconsistency to prove something is consistent. That kinda without saying."

      So far there's 1 MHS feat, of which is questionable on its own and likely much lower than that. There are some 19-22 sub/supersonic feats. Which one is the inconsistency here?

      "I know that. The problem is when you start using them struggling with lesser things on an absurd scale that makes the low end an outlier as well. Again, like using Goku getting hurt by a bullet to say him surviving Soul Zamasu is PIS. And why doesn't this logic work the other way then? If you can use low end outliers to disprove high end outliers, why can't one use high end outliers to disprove low end ones. "Hulk losing to a gorilla is an cause he shook infinite planets." Is it perhaps that both the low end and the high end are equally ridiculous and shouldn't be argued with? Cause that's what I'd say."

      This isn't like that though. This isn't:

      • Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he shook infinite planets

      This is:

      • Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he's busted planets on 6 different occassions, shaken stars on 4 occassions, held open black holes 3 times, and shaken planets through shockwaves 6 other times
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    • LordXcano wrote:
      @Ryu

      So far there's 1 MHS feat, of which is questionable on its own and likely much lower than that. There are some 19-22 sub/supersonic feats. Which one is the inconsistency here?

      This isn't like that though. This isn't:

      • Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he shook infinite planets

      This is:

      • Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he's busted planets on 6 different occassions, shaken stars on 4 occassions, held open black holes 3 times, and shaken planets through shockwaves 6 other times

      So do you think Spiderman is Sub/Supersonic or not? Cause you kept claiming you don't think that, yet you're constantly bringing up these feats and indicating that between them and the MHS stuff they aren't the consistency.

      If you think Sub/Supersonic Spiderman feats aren't outliers, then fine. But if you think they are outliers and that his profile shouldn't be made to them, then don't use them. Cause again, you don't use inconsistency to prove consistency.

      This isn't like that though. This isn't:

      • Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he shook infinite planets

      This is:

      • Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he's busted planets on 6 different occassions, shaken stars on 4 occassions, held open black holes 3 times, and shaken planets through shockwaves 6 other times

      But when you're claiming that all those feats you listed are inconsistent or shouldn't be used for the profiles, then it's still using outliers to prove outliers.

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    • "So do you think Spiderman is Sub/Supersonic or not?"

      On average? Yes. But I think we could scale him to Black Panther as a low-end in lieu of better feats.

      "But when you're claiming that all those feats you listed are inconsistent or shouldn't be used for the profiles, then it's still using outliers to prove outliers."

      I think I understand your point now.

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    • Alright.

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    • @Xcano

      To prove how bad your logic is, I will use it backwards.

      Spider-Man isn't merely Hypersonic, he is Massively Hypersonic+. Here is proof:

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    • @Matt

      Every single one of these fails to meet the criteria for aimdodging on both our page and the OBD page except for these two, however the latter is still complicated by the fact he has precog and such.

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    • I don't see how they are "aimdodging" at all. You are just assuming he dodged before things were fired from the lack of showings, which is dishonest.

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    • Can we get back on topic.

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    • Promestein wrote:
      Can we get back on topic.

      I agree. Spider-Man moved at Mach 400 and pushed Hulk.

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    • honestly I agree with Josh here.

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    • I never seen a thread more divided in opinions...

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    • So long as we focus on the consistent showings that Spider-Man and Iron Fist have displayed that puts them at Multi-City Block Level-City Level and MHS+ respectively like the ones Matthew showed. 

      Then the PIS moments or the so-called outlierish feats should not hinder them or anyone who scales to them from being at such a level.  

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    • Spider-Man would still be At least 8-A scaling from Deadpool, and possibly be Low 7-C anyway since Luke Cage isn't really that stronger than him. They fought many times in the comics and Spidey won a lot of times.

      Also Spidey consistently dodges attacks from Electro, who wields real MHS+ Electricity. And would scale from Daredevil's speed and Iron Fist's speed, and his own Microsecond Speed feats and the speed feats of guys like Captain America, Deadpool, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Hank Pym / Scott Lang, Thing and Iron Man all of which have Mach 100+ / Mach 1000+ speed feats.

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    • Well, I agree that our standard practice is to use high-end feats that are not complete outliers, and that Spider-Man can be scaled from other characters with similar levels of feats anyway.

      However, LordXcano has a point in that this feat in particular seems unreliable, and that it might be better if we use other ones instead.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, I agree that our standard practice is to use high-end feats that are not complete outliers, and that Spider-Man can be scaled from other characters with similar levels of feats anyway.

      However, LordXcano has a point in that this feat in particular seems unreliable, and that it might be better if we use other ones instead,

      Which feat are you referring to Ant? cause if that's the case--- Matthew's suggestion on using the MHS+ stuff from Spider-Man consistently dodging and reacting to Electro's Lightning seems to be the most reliable to me. 

      Because he does create and manipulates natural lightning after all.

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    • I referred to the one in which Spider-Man saves the Hulk. The timeframe seems to be unreliable according to what LordXcano wrote.

      Btw:

      During the gradual Marvel revisions we are likely going to insert quite a lot of new calculation links from the Narutoforums. Please remember to always back them up to the Wayback Machine Internet Archive in conjunction, in case their URLs are changed, or the calculations are removed.

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    • @Matt

      Why would Spidey scale to Deadpool's best weapon, which IIRC was a pre-made bomb?

      And could you link Spidey dodging Electro's lightning? I'm aware he does it, but most of those feats are like this, which doesn't meet our criteria for aimdodging.

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    • So, is anybody interested in adjusting Spider-Man's scaling to some other feats instead?

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    • @Xcano

      Deadpool has two feats of 8-A durability. He will be upgraded to 8-A normally, and plenty of heroes will scale from him.

      I am currently going through Electro's appearances. Spider-Man being MHS+ is very acceptable.

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    • @Matt

      Could you link me Deadpool's dura feats?

      Silk seems like she actually dodged it, but Black Cat says right on the page that she's just really lucky.

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    • @Xcano

      https://youtu.be/oPQU02g_osw?t=615

      Two feats involving him tanking explosions whose wields are nearly identical. 125 tons and 129 tons of TNT.

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    • @Matt

      Alrighty then.

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    • There's a 90s storyline where Electro gets a stated x1000 Power multiplier. Spidey still survives lightning from him. Assuming that his lightning is at least somewhat comparable to a real lightning bolt, giving it an output of 1,000,000,000 joules, that would mean that with a x1000 multiplier his attacks would have a potency of 1.0e12 Joules.

      8-A, bordering on Low 7-C. And Spider-Man survived his attacks in the storyline.

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    • 3 things:

      • I think this was discussed before, but a vast majority of the energy from lightning does not hit the human body
      • That's only 239 Tons, not really bordering
      • Are you talking about Amazing Spider-Man #422 to #425?
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      • We rank Lightning in fiction as not wholly similar to real life. Characters who produce "real" lightning are High 8-C, and those that tank that are High 8-C too.
      • It's a lowball. It'd be 10 times higher at max.
      • Yes.
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      • The point of the discussion was to stop doing that, nothing came of it because that'd be way too many revisions though
      • See above
      • I'm pretty sure Spider-Man was absolutely destroyed in that fight and had to plead for his life, only winning later when he got a lightning resistant suit
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      • Most people still disagreed with changing the current policy
      • Same
      • Spider-Man still survived attacks from Electro meaning it scales to his durability.
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      • I was wrong about the revision bit, but the thread ends with Anton and TLT clarifying most of the energy is used getting past potential difference and isn't actually transferred to the target
      • The fact Spidey was allowed to live means that Electro wasn't going all out, and the fact he would've died had Electro not let him live means that he could barely survive casual attacks
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    • He was still surviving Electro's attacks, and survived attacks ever after the electricity-proof suit failed.

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    • I know he survived attacks, but it's kinda like using this as a durability feat for Superman or this to say Captain America is on par with Thanos. Both are clearly casual attacks that the other person was majorly hurt by. Electro isn't even going all out and he nearly kills Spider-Man.

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    • Well, I think that some of Spider-Man's higher lightning-dodging feats should preferably be calculated, and that they will likely yield Massively Hypersonic results, but we probably also have to revert him and the characters scaled from him to Large Building level. At least unless we find better reliable feats.

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    • Doesn't he somewhat scale off of Luke Cage though? Even if my calc wasn't accurate, attacks that completely destroy skyscrapers have been calculated at Low 7-C by Aiden.

      User blog:AidenBrooks999/Destroying Things

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    • Luke Cage is currently treated as considerably stronger, and particularly more durable, than Spider-Man.

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    • @Ant

      Are you sure he is? The only fight in the comics which I remember between the two is this:

      http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/5569944.html?thread=164950424&style=light

      They are mostly equal in the punching.

      Also, Silk is explictly stated to be "Faster than Lightning", which is MHS+

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    • Well, he can recurrently fight on even footing with villains such as Orca, Ironclad, and even Proxima Midnight, and once completely outclassed the Green Goblin.

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    • As for Silk, that may have been a metaphorical statement. It is probably better to scale from high-level combat speed feats.

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    • How could that be a metaphorical statement when it's in a scene where she's fighting a lightning manipulator and dodging lightning

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    • She did? That should be fine then.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      As for Silk, that may have been a metaphorical statement. It is probably better to scale from high-level combat speed feats.

      No, it's not. You are just saying it could have been. She's in a scene casually dodging Electro's lightning from a few feet away, dancing between his lightning, and Electro says he can't hit her because she's too fast, to which Black Cat asks in disbelief: "Faster than Lightning?"

      There is only one possible interpretation for this: Silk is Faster than Lightning, or MHS+. If this was anything but a Marvel Comicbook character there would be no argument to be had here.

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    • Personally, I think 5-6 consistent feats is the golden number in this case. (Due to how long Marvel's Spiderman comics has been running). 3-4 is enough for an "At least High 8-C, likely 7-C" Is there any more town level feats @Matt? 

      @Prom I thought Electro manipulates electricity, not lightning?

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    • @SD

      He can cause thunderstorms with his powers and cloud to ground lightning. And his Lightning is Real Lightning because it has literally every property of real lightning.

      It flows through conductive material, can turn sand into a type of glass in a reaction that happens when real lightning hits sand, has an electromagnetic field, can be countered by the right materials and being properly grounded, is attracted to metals, etc.

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    • I see, I see.

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    • Well, I am fine with scaling from the Silk feat. I had just not checked out the scan previously.

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    • I also read all of Electro's appearances in Amazing Spider-Man. I wanna read his appearances over the other Spider-Man books like Spectacular Spider-Man, Superior Spider-Man, Ultimate Spider-Man, etc.

      Spidey already has plenty of feats.

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    • Okay.

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    • Anyway, since the Hulk feat is unreliable, I would appreciate if somebody can revert the upgrades to Spider-Man, and the characters scaled from him, back to High 8-C for the moment.

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    • @Ant

      I think we need to upgrade him to 8-A still. Xcano agreed with using those durability feats for Deadpool.

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    • What do you mean?

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    • Deadpool survived two explosions that were calced at 8-A with 0 injuries. 1 at 125 Tons and the other at 129 Tons.

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    • Matthew Schroeder
      Matthew Schroeder removed this reply because:
      This has nothing to do with this. And you can use the "PIS" excuse for most feats.
      18:35, May 4, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Okay. He is consistently damaged by enormously less though, so I am not sure if we should count it as outliers.

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    • Why did my comment get removed?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Okay. He is consistently damaged by enormously less though, so I am not sure if we should count it as outliers.

      What, bullets? Those are never an argument. There's Tier 4 characters that are still pierced by bullets (Spawn, Wonder Woman and Buu). Even at Wall level, Deadpool should never be pierced by a .9mm Handgun bullet.

      @Rubber

      Because nobody is arguing about Dragon Ball. That will only make the thread slower.

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    • Okay. Never mind then.

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    • I looked over the two Deadpool Durability feats and they both seem legitimate. My only concern is that in the slightly higher one (pulverization of a city block), you see some tiny fragments, but that could've been a result of the other things destroyed.

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    • @Matthew Fair enough, thou saying only comic book characters get "this level of scrutiny" is false.

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    • Okay. I suppose that they can be scaled from Deadpool if no other alternatives are available then.

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    • Just remember to always back up new calculation links from sources outside of the wiki to the Wayback Machine archive.

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    • The calculations are from a Youtube Video. 

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    • I do not think that we allow youtube video calculations. Just text versions. If you transfer the contents to a blog post, it should be fine however,

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    • I will try so.

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    • Yeah, I don't know enough about Deadpool to contest the 8-A things right now.

      Grudge has told me that Silk is faster than Spider-Man though, and going by this scan it would seem that she is by Spider-Man's own admission. She only has 79 appearances too, so I could probably read through her catalogue if needed.

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    • She is faster than Spider-Man, albeit not by much. They were both bitten by the same spiders and developed similar powers. Their differences come from sexual diphormism, I think. Peter is stronger but she is faster.

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    • William Proto / Vivi actually read every single one of Deadpool's 900+ appearances in order to make the video. So I consider it to be very much accurate.

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    • @Matt

      I mean, on the page Spidey says her speed makes it seem like she's everywhere and that her spider-sense is so much greater than his the only comparison would be like a bullet-timer to a normal person

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    • He never said that her speed and reactions are so faster than him that he is a normal person compared to her. He just said that she is a bullet-timer like the Matrix. Which is hilarious since Peter also is.

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    • And besides, in the same scene Spidey was also dodging the lightning .

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    • Yes, Silk has a better Spider-sense, so what. The first one is a backslap, that's it.

      And he doesn't get hit by the lightning, he gets hit by Black Cat.

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    • The point being that Silk is consistently depicted as faster than Spidey, Spider-Sense contributes to their speed. What do you mean it's just a backslap? The image was to demonstrate that she's fully capable of moving far faster than Spider-Man can react.

      I see it now. You can still make the case that he's timing it, since Electro is firing at Silk, not Spider-Man, and since Black Cat is trying to attack him it's entirely possible he was trying to dodge her instead.

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    • Well, Silk is only slightly swifter than Spider-Man, and Spider-Man has dodged Electro's lightning himself several times.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, Silk is only slightly swifter than Spider-Man, and Spider-Man has dodged Electro's lightning himself several times.

      Yes, from Amazing Spider-Man alone, he has several instances where it is not Aimdodging.

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    • Still, it would be appreciated if LordXcano could help us out by calculating a few examples that you provide.

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    • Wait, if Radion's power was stated to be about hundreds of megatons.

      Wouldn't put both Radion and Iron Fist at Large City level, than just City level?

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