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  • The Everlasting
    The Everlasting closed this thread because:
    This is going nowhere, fast.
    04:05, January 30, 2017

    Battle of the Glowing Spikey Haired Martial Artists

    Cell Saga Son Goku vs Asura's Wrath Akuma

    Location: Abandoned Planet

    Both start off 200 feet away

    Speed Equalized

    Goku starts off in Base Form

    Akuma starts off in Oni Form

    NO BFR

    WHO WINS AND WHY?

    Goku's profile- http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Son_Goku

    Akuma's profile- http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Akuma_(Asura's_Wrath)

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    • BUMP (420th post 😎👌)

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    • The best feats Akuma has puts him below even Cell Saga Goku, Goku stomps.

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    • Akuma is high 4-C

      Also Akuma via stamina and superior skills

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    • @Leogian4511

      Asura's Wrath Oni Akuma is at least Large Star level for facing Mantra Asura.

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    • So far, Goku: 0 Akuma: 1

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    • I beileve there was a vegeta vs akuma and vegeta won I think might be wrong

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    • Was there?

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    • No it's still there. Basically the same akuma has raging demon and can bfr but goku is faster so neither will connect (akuma being 10c goku is 25c). Akuma has way more stamina. But goku speed will be to much so goku for the win

      Edit oh wait speed is equal then akuma he can bfr goku, Kill him with raging demon, or Outlast goku by having way more stamina.

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    • No BFR as stated in the battle description.

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    • Still better stamina and raging demon

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    • Ok, so far, Goku: 0 Akuma: 2

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    • BTW, what do you guys think of the match up and title name? Thinking about doing a special name for all the battles I do from now on.

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    • So is this like Cell Saga Goku? Cause if not Akuma gets obliterated effortlessly. Post Super Saiyan God base form Goku is insane, even without his god form, and with speed equalized, instant transmission gives goku an advantage as he can use it for evasion or attacking.

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    • This is Cell Saga Goku, as stated in the battle description.

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    • BUMP

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    • Hmm, this is a tricky one since Akuma's raging demon likely won't affect Goku due to the fact that the raging demon only damages the soul if the person is full of negative emotions anger, hatred, darkness etc. However, Goku is pure of heart and due to the fact that this is the Full-power SSJ means that Goku is in complete control of all his emotions meaning he isn't full of rage like most of the SSJ transformations. 

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    • Goku:1

      Akuma: 2

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    • I agree with Yojimbo.

      The raging demon won´t be effective against Goku imo either.

      And i think even if the skills differ, Goku can still blind Akuma with Solar Flare or distract him with energy blasts just like he did with Frieza, i think Goku wins with High Dificulty.

      Not to mention that if we allow Goku to teleport away from the battlefield,so he could have time to charge a spirit bomb. he could use it easly on Akuma.

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    • Goku: 2

      Akuma: 2

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    •  

      @Miles

      He never said Goku wins

      And Akuma has BFR, can teleport himself, has his own energy based attacks, slightly higher AP, and vastly superior stamina.


      He also IMO is a more skilled fighter 

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    • @Iron Kirby

      No BFR as stated in the OP.

      Goku has Large Star Level AP in Base form and Large Star Level+ as Full Power SSJ

      Oni Akuma has at least Large Star Level, possibly higher

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    • PTSOXMONKEY99 wrote:
      @Iron Kirby

      No BFR as stated in the OP.

      Goku has Large Star Level AP in Base form and Large Star Level+ as Full Power SSJ

      Oni Akuma has at least Large Star Level, possibly higher

      Sorry for forgeting.

      No. Goku has Large Star Level AP that got buffed to LS+ in the ROSAT.

      We should use basic large star AP for fairness to both.

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    • I thought the fact that Oni Akuma was stronger than base Goku and had a "possibly higher" as an AP would even this out when combined with his superior stamina and advanced techniques.

      Also, it still says Cell Saga Goku is Large Star Level base, Large Star level+ as Full Power SSJ on his profile.

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    • If you say so.


      No, it says Large Star Level, increased to LS+ in FPSSJ which was a new form in the Cell Saga. The android saga starts as LS

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    • All of those stats are listed under his Cell Saga Profile.

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    • Cell Saga includes android saga.


      Regardless, Akuma outlasts Goku. Even if he does or doesn't have the initial edge, Goku isn't going to beat Akuma in 5-15 minutes before he tires out, at which point his stats will decrease simply due to exertion and fatigue.

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    • Goku: 2

      Akuma: 3

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    • Goku has superior skills in martial arts than Akuma, being able to pick up skills. The Ranging Demon would have no effect, Goku's teleportation is just as effective, Goku has a more versatile level of ranged attacks than Akuma (or Asura AKA the one Akuma fought), and Goku is stilled enough to take him on hand to hand. 

      It's not even true Akuma has that much more stamina, he downright turned into a statue for 500 years after his duel with Asura (for.... some reason).

      The only way Goku can lose if he understimated him somehow

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    • Goku: 3

      Akuma: 3

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    • Goku based off of better durability, superior skills (solar flare, sealing technique, instant transmission kamehameha, etc) and what others have said above. 

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    • Goku: 4

      Akuma: 3

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    • battle could go either way, goku might have the advantage in skill, AP and Dura, but akuma has hell of a lot more stamina, plus he could BFR goku 

      i vote for inconclusive for now

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    • No BFR as stated in the OP.

      Goku: 4

      Akuma: 3

      Inconclusive: 1

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    • PTSOXMONKEY99 wrote:
      No BFR as stated in the OP.

      Goku: 4

      Akuma: 3

      Inconclusive: 1

      ops sorry, i still think its inconclusive

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    • Akuma also has the adavantage of raging demon

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    • Wow, the Shun Goku Satsu is being downplayed here. Not only has it worked on people like Goku (aka Gouken), but Goku is only pure by DB standards. Soul hax is soul hax, and given that it's Akuma's signature attack, he'll use it to win. Goku rarely pulls out the Solar Flare (so rarely that it is upsetting to see people use it in vs matches), and both have enough skills/experience to render the others moot, so that shouldn't be brought up either.

      Also, he turned to stone AFTER 500 years. Not DURING 500 years, @Xantospoc

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    • Akuma wins via soul hax and bigger stamina.

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    • Goku: 4

      Akuma: 5

      Inconclusive: 1

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Wow, the Shun Goku Satsu is being downplayed here. Not only has it worked on people like Goku (aka Gouken), but Goku is only pure by DB standards. Soul hax is soul hax, and given that it's Akuma's signature attack, he'll use it to win. Goku rarely pulls out the Solar Flare (so rarely that it is upsetting to see people use it in vs matches), and both have enough skills/experience to render the others moot, so that shouldn't be brought up either.

      Also, he turned to stone AFTER 500 years. Not DURING 500 years, @Xantospoc

      what do you mean when you say "Goku is only pure by DB standards"?

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    • Don't you have to be pure to ride the nimbus? Either way that wouldn't change the end results in my view.  I vote Goku still.

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    • @AO. I mean in DB, even if you kill, fight, have bouts of rage, and be selfish, you can be pure if it's for the right reasons. Even Vegeta is considered pure after his redemption. Given that Gouken, who is basically the purest person in the verse, became comatose for years and only survived because of the PoN.

      @EnoYaka. Yes, but again, DB standards.

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    • In Dragon ball, being pure of heart is not killing your opponent and forgiving others. 

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Wow, the Shun Goku Satsu is being downplayed here. Not only has it worked on people like Goku (aka Gouken), but Goku is only pure by DB standards. Soul hax is soul hax, and given that it's Akuma's signature attack, he'll use it to win. Goku rarely pulls out the Solar Flare (so rarely that it is upsetting to see people use it in vs matches), and both have enough skills/experience to render the others moot, so that shouldn't be brought up either.

      Also, he turned to stone AFTER 500 years. Not DURING 500 years, @Xantospoc

      Hey, you cannot take away an attack with something as "rarely uses it anyways".


      Also, if you dont remember, Gouken survived the Shun Goku Satsu by being pure of heart and using the power of nothing, which is effectively not giving youslef into a killing intent, just like goku.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @AO. I mean in DB, even if you kill, fight, have bouts of rage, and be selfish, you can be pure if it's for the right reasons. Even Vegeta is considered pure after his redemption. Given that Gouken, who is basically the purest person in the verse, became comatose for years and only survived because of the PoN.

      @EnoYaka. Yes, but again, DB standards.

      well your right, but can i ask, could it be that gouken was affected by it thanks to Plot convinience?

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    • Remember you cannot use Gouken as an argument with Asura´sWrath!Akuma.

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    • I don't know, but I highly doubt it.

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    • Just to throw my two cents in, I think the Raging Demon could do some damage to Goku, since it's obvious he does have inner rage and can be selfish, what with his desire for battle, but like Gouken and Ryu, all he desires is to find a worthy opponent and protect his loved ones. Since most of the pain and damage comes from the Raging Demon comes from it turning your own sins against you, I don't think it will be an instant kill, but it will do some damage. Also, knowing Akuma's love of battle and search for a worthy opponent, I doubt he's gonna want to bust out his best and most lethal move from the getgo.

      Also, much like Goku, Akuma likes to hold back to drag fights out to see if they are a worthy opponents. While I'm not sure if this applies to Asura's Wrath! Oni Akuma, I think it is something to think about.

      Also, saying that Goku hasn't used a technique in a while isn't a good enough reason to take away a technique. He only started using Kaioken again just recently.

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    • I think that Goku still wins with Intant Kamehameha and Solar Flare.

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    • Goku: 5

      Akuma: 5

      Inconclusive: 1

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    • PTSOXMONKEY99 wrote:
      Just to throw my two cents in, I think the Raging Demon could do some damage to Goku, since it's obvious he does have inner rage and can be selfish, what with his desire for battle, but like Gouken and Ryu, all he desires is to find a worthy opponent and protect his loved ones. Since most of the pain and damage comes from the Raging Demon comes from it turning your own sins against you, I don't think it will be an instant kill, but it will do some damage. Also, knowing Akuma's love of battle and search for a worthy opponent, I doubt he's gonna want to bust out his best and most lethal move from the getgo.

      Also, much like Goku, Akuma likes to hold back to drag fights out to see if they are a worthy opponents. While I'm not sure if this applies to Asura's Wrath! Oni Akuma, I think it is something to think about.

      Also, saying that Goku hasn't used a technique in a while isn't a good enough reason to take away a technique. He only started using Kaioken again just recently.

      well if both are in character, then i'd say inconclusive, but if both are bloodlusted then goku could win since he'd just use his instant kamehameha to kill him right away

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    • Goku: 5

      Akuma: 5

      Inconclusive: 2

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    • Akuma's first appearance was blindsiding someone with a technique.

      Raging Demon rekt Gouken, which disapproves it not one shotting.

      Oni in itself is basically Broly. Rage incarnate.

      We don't assume that for anyone, because this is in character. Even bloodlusted I don't see him using it. I can count on one hand how many times Goku used the SF. Not to mention that while awesome, Goku using the KK then was an a**pull

      @Miles. As I stated above, Goku rarely uses the SF, and it's basically useless at this level of skill, and it's not like akuma cant both, teleport and use ki blasts. Besides, even the Warp Kamehameha had some prep behind it, as it required convincing everyone that he was gonna take out the planet to defeat Cell. Oni doesn't care about that.

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    • I'm pretty sure Goku will use the instant Kamehameha against the raging demon. Since he will think of it as a bad/evil guy. My vote goes to Goku via instant Kamehameha

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Akuma's first appearance was blindsiding someone with a technique.

      Raging Demon rekt Gouken, which disapproves it not one shotting.

      Oni in itself is basically Broly. Rage incarnate.

      We don't assume that for anyone, because this is in character. Even bloodlusted I don't see him using it. I can count on one hand how many times Goku used the SF. Not to mention that while awesome, Goku using the KK then was an a**pull

      @Miles. As I stated above, Goku rarely uses the SF, and it's basically useless at this level of skill, and it's not like akuma cant both, teleport and use ki blasts. Besides, even the Warp Kamehameha had some prep behind it, as it required convincing everyone that he was gonna take out the planet to defeat Cell. Oni doesn't care about that.

      he didn't need to convince them

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    • https://youtu.be/k5lwNsKbC4E

      Pretty sure everyone, including Cell, was just standing there scared s***less

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      https://youtu.be/k5lwNsKbC4E

      Pretty sure everyone, including Cell, was just standing there scared s***less

      yes they were convinced but why do they need to be convinced, its not like goku need to convince someone in order for him to use kamehameha or instant transmision

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    • Also, the people voting are basically saying that Goku will not only one shot, but won't get hit at all by the raging demon.

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    • Also, Goku can use the spirit bomb, right?


      Its pretty much a one hit kill in Goku´s favour.

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    • @AO. Because most characters aren't going to just stand there when someone is threatening to destroy you and the planet, and Goku can't predict where Oni will be if he's moving.

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    • Goku: 6

      Akuma: 5

      Inconclusive: 2

      Still goes to show that lack of use doesn't mean he won't use it.

      Also, that was M. Bison, someone Akuma would have no problem with killing. And he has shown on numerous occasion that, despite being consumed by the Satsui No Hado, he has a moral code that he will follow, like going easy on weaker opponents and refusing to kill opponents who don't stand a chance against him. While I agree that Oni is basically Akuma as rage incarnate, he still shows a desire for a worthy opponent.

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    • well no one is saying that, and i personally believe that the raging demon might do some damage, depending on how you put, because if we use the whole "only by DB standards" thing then ye he will get defeated, but if we use what the series has said then not a problem or mid dif

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    • @Goku. If Goku tries to charge the spirit bomb, he will be killed so many ones over it's not even funny.

      @PTS. If same Akuma had no qualms with killing M. Bison, why would he have qualms about killing Goku, who he hasn't even heard of. Also, Goku wouldn't qualify for any of those that the moral code will fall under. Not to mention that Akuma is evil. And Oni isn't even canon. He doesn't show that desire iirc, and is only about destruction. He loses all humanity in that form.

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    • Wait, wasnt Asura able to COUNTER the Raging Demon even if he is full of rage?

      Why cant Goku?

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    • @AO. Even if we use DB standards, there's still the matter of Gouken.

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    • Akuma isn't necessarily evil. He just wants a worthy battle. Sure, he can be pretty ruthless when in battle, like when he attacked Sakura to get Ryu to go all out and use the Satsui No Hado, but throughout most of SF history, Akuma has consistently shown only one goal, to find the ultimate oppenent. He saw right away that M. Bison was a scumbag that was actually evil and had no sense of honor and only fought to further his own goals, not to become a better martial artist.

      While Oni certainly has lost the sense of mercy Akuma had, he still shows the same love of battle Akuma did. When he see's a fellow martial artist who has power that equals his, he's not gonna just throw away the chance at the ultimate battle he's always yearned for by using his (possible) one hit kill move

      Good point Miles

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @AO. Even if we use DB standards, there's still the matter of Gouken.

      plot convinience

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    • To be fair goku could charge a spirit bomb by using solar flare then use that time to charge one up but it would be rather small. He did this against great ape vegeta but he was shot by him before he could throw it (of course it wasn't enough for him to kill vegeta so I dought it would kill akuma)

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    • The likelihood of it being plot convenience is infinitesimal. I might as well say that Frieza destroying Vegeta was plot convenience.

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    • Asura counters it by blocking every single punch with his many arms with his strongest physical attack. Since Goku only has 2 arms and his strongest attack is a beam, he's not getting the same luxury as Asura.

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    • Goku can use ki to enhance his strength/hitting power. He also has a slight speed advantage over Akuma, so he can compensate his lack of arms with speed and strength.

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    • Strength doesn't matter in this situation and you yourself equalized speed.

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    • Goku can instantly teleport to King Kai's planet and charge the spirit bomb as long he wants to.

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    • And again, Mantra Asura was able to counter the raging demon by just punching back at Oni.

      I dont see ant reason Goku couldnt do the same.

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    • Forgot about that. Still, if it can be countered with strength, which Goku can increase with ki, it should be even easier for him to counter the Raging Demon with speed equalized.

      If Asura could do it, I don't see a reason why Goku wouldn't be able to as well.

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    • @Milrs. And I guess that Oni is just gonna wait there? Not to mention that Goku never did that before. And to both of you. Mantra Asura has 6 arms. Goku has 2. And Mantra Asura had a hard time blocking them all. How is Goku going to block them all?

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    • Speed Equalized.

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    • Speed equalized has literally nothing to do with what I just said.

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    • He could at least block 1/3 of ´em, i guess.

      I am just saying it is possible to at least block some of the damage the Raging Demon would do to Goku on top of the lack of effect that technique would have on someone pure of heart.


      And again, i still think Solar Flare, Instant Kamehameha and being able to easly teleport to King Kai´s or Namek to charge a Spirit Bomb as much as he needs and teleport directly into Akuma´s Ki are enough methods for Goku to beat Akuma. 

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    • But now Goku can see all of the fists flying at him, so there is no reason why he can't block/dodge/counter the punches like Asura did, since now his lack of limbs won't matter.

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    • One hit is all he needs. It's a soul attack Guy needed to block every single one of Evil Ryu's hits with Guy's sizable speed advantage.

      I've explained the "Pure of Heart" reasoning so much that I'm not even going to bother anymore.

      Solar Flare can be countered by going intangible while blinded, assuming Akuma would be blinded in the first place and not just close his eyes or anything. I've also explained why the Warp Kamehameha would be moot due to its main effectiveness coming through deception and Akuma can also teleport and shoot ki blasts, and the third reason is bull, because it was never done ever, and sounds like one of those reasons people come up to justify Yukari beating Reinhard.

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    • Just like Akuma can see everything Goku can do, and block, dodge or counter all of his moves. Works both ways. Not to mention that Akuma doesn't just lose the ability after using it once, as Super Meters are clearly game mechanics.

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    • But now the speed factor is pointless, since they are moving at the same speed, so there is a good chance that Goku can counter the Raging Demon just like Asura did.

      Also, the Raging Demon isn't really just one punch, it's a series of punches. That entire series needs to connect in order for the soul destroying technique to be effective. So it's not like "one hit" will kill Goku.

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    • Again, Asura had 6 arms, and they had the same speed. Goku has 2, and they have the same speed. Goku won't block all of those attacks.

      And there's still no counter for intangibility.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Again, Asura had 6 arms, and they had the same speed. Goku has 2, and they have the same speed. Goku won't block all of those attacks.

      And there's still no counter for intangibility.

      you have no proof that asura and akuma had the exact same speed

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    • The thing with the spirit bomb I have seen in a lot of Goku match ups is that "His opponent will kill Goku before he can charge it" Goku is not an idiot. Yes, the times Goku has used the spirit bomb, there were people fending off the enemy. However, do you really think Goku is so much of an idiot, he will charge the spirit bomb, and not be cautious of raging demon?. Note that the spirit bomb STAYS in the air, even while Goku is not charging it. He can gather energy for the spirit bomb, let it go, charge it up again till it is ready

      Goku wins with Instant kamehameha or charges the spirit bomb on a timed period, and instant transmissions around till he has enough energy to kill.

      The only problem is how long it will take to gather the energy. Well, it won't take as long as it did against buu, but it will take more time then he used it against Frieza. I am pretty sure Goku can outsmart and tank till then.

      Edit: The spirit bomb is stronger depending on how much evil the opponent has. Hmm.... A RAGING DEMON tanking a spirit bomb. Lol please.

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    • Akuma is scaled off of Asura. They have the same speed. At worst, comparable speed. That's how this site works.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Akuma is scaled off of Asura. They have the same speed. At worst, comparable speed. That's how this site works.

      yes, i know, but the speed isn't exactly the same, yes it could scale as comparable but still it isn't the same, goku has isntant trasmission he can dodge it

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    • Akuma for reasons above.

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    • But they're speed is EQUALIZED. Even if Asura needed six arms to block the attack, that doesn't matter in this scenario since they are moving at the same speed. They're punches are moving at the same speed, so it's not like Goku can't react to the attacks.

      Also, edited my last comment.

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    • Goku: 7

      Akuma: 5

      Inconclusive: 2

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    • @Goku. Every single time the Spirit Bomb was used, Goku or someone else was beaten to a bloody pulp. The argument holds no water. And as I've been stating this entire time, Goku cannot take a Raging Demon. And no one is outsmarting anyone this fight. I've also explained the IT Kamehameha argument.

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    • Why my vote wasn't counted?

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    • Sorry, didn't see that

      Goku: 7

      Akuma: 6

      Inconclusive: 2

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    • @PTX. Read my Guy argument. Guy needed to block every single attack. And the matter of the RD being blocked is a matter of precision than speed. And Goku can't dodge it forever.

      @AO. And Akuma has teleportation too.

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    • When in the world Guy fought Evil Ryu?!

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @Goku. Every single time the Spirit Bomb was used, Goku or someone else was beaten to a bloody pulp. The argument holds no water. And as I've been stating this entire time, Goku cannot take a Raging Demon. And no one is outsmarting anyone this fight. I've also explained the IT Kamehameha argument.

      you haven't explained anything, nor have you convinced me about it. what about the saiyan geting stronger the longer he fights

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    • No. He gets stronger the more he gets beaten to near death. He doesn't have reactive evolution.

      I have explained the IT Kamehameha several times. I've stated that Akuma also has teleportation and powerful ki blasts, so IT Kamehameha is moot, and when it was used, he had to have everyone focused on the planet busting Kamehameha instead of the technique.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      One hit is all he needs. It's a soul attack Guy needed to block every single one of Evil Ryu's hits with Guy's sizable speed advantage.

      I've explained the "Pure of Heart" reasoning so much that I'm not even going to bother anymore.

      Solar Flare can be countered by going intangible while blinded, assuming Akuma would be blinded in the first place and not just close his eyes or anything. I've also explained why the Warp Kamehameha would be moot due to its main effectiveness coming through deception and Akuma can also teleport and shoot ki blasts, and the third reason is bull, because it was never done ever, and sounds like one of those reasons people come up to justify Yukari beating Reinhard.

      I disagree.

      Goku being pure of heart DOES reduce the effect of the Raging Demon.

      Neither opponent has knowledge of each other, so i don´t see how Akuma could not only predict and counter an technique he doesnt know about of someone who has the same speed as him.


      Also, Akuma teleporting is absolutely useless against Goku´s.

      Akuma cannot sense ki nor would know to look for Goku on King Kai´s, Earth or even Namek. And the Satsuni no hadou has been stated to be a force of evil, so the spirit bomb would have effect on Akuma.

      Even if you take Goku´s Spirit bomb away, he can always charge his Kamehameha or other techniques in that time instead.

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    • @Cal

      I'm pretty sure that after years of martial arts training, fighting enemies of of mystical and alien origins, and learning dozens of techniques, one of which allows him to teleport while chargeing a kamehameha, he would have no problem blocking a flurry of punches coming at the same speed as his punches. And even if Oni can keep up the pressure with his superior stamina, it's not like Goku's gonna stand there and keep blocking. Once he realizes he's can't outlast this guy in stamina, he's gonna uses Instanst Transmission to get away.

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    • I disagree with most of you who say Goku has to charge the spirit bomb in front of Akuma.

      He can teleport instantly to Namek or any other place and charge it there.


      Akuma hasnt shown to be able to track ki down and in my opinion, its quite unlikely for Akuma to be able to reach Goku whenever he went to charge any attack he wants and launch it back with ease by tracking Akuma´s ki down.

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    • Goku is a pure as Gouken, if not, less so, because Goku is selfish and uses rage and has killed. Gouken was rendered near death for years and was only alive becasue of the Power of Nothingness.

      If you're talking about the IT Kamehameha, then Oni isn't going to just sit there and allow Goku to set it up.

      What proof do you have for that. Like, at all.

      Why would Akuma just sit there for minutes while Goku leaves the battlefield. Anyone would've moved on by then. And the case is still the same if he charges up anything else in that time.

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    • Basically what Miles said. You cannot say "Oh I explained this or that" and assume/think you are right especially when others disagree with you and give reasons as to why the spirit bomb would work. 

      "beaten to a bloody pulp" so what? I did mention that in the fight. You didnt even counter me saying "You dont need to be charging the spirit bomb for it to be there" He can take time slots as to when he will charge it. The energy will remain there unless Akuma destroys it, only then, it will destroy him cause, well. Demon. Spirit bomb eaisly destroys Akuma.

      Anyway, isn't 7 votes counted as victory and added to Goku's page?

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      No. He gets stronger the more he gets beaten to near death. He doesn't have reactive evolution.

      I have explained the IT Kamehameha several times. I've stated that Akuma also has teleportation and powerful ki blasts, so IT Kamehameha is moot, and when it was used, he had to have everyone focused on the planet busting Kamehameha instead of the technique.

      hey i never said he does it like black goku or hit, i simply meant that he kinda adaps to the fighting style or whatever, but not that he gets 2 times stronger or something. and i already told you he doesn't need them to be focused on the planet busting, he uses IT when they're fighting seriously, like when he used it against copy vegeta so why can he do the same while charging the kamehameha

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    • If an argument is debunked, then the reasoning is debunked. And Miles' argument holds no water because it never happened before for the leaving and coming back, and Goku would be hit with the raging demon in the meantime if he stays. A one-shot technique. What will the spirit bomb do if Goku is dead?

      Also, the opponent has to be up by three, and even then, there's a day grace period.

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    • Sore wa chigau yo.


      @CAL

      Sorry, but that is one of Goku´s major advantages in this fight.

      He can track and sense Akuma´s ki down, Akuma can´t.

      Goku could easly teleport aay from the planet, charge his attacks somewhere else and easly deliver the attack in front of Akuma even if he moved to another planet. (Isn´t Goku´s Instant Transmission range at least galactic? That is far anough for me. I dont see proof of Akuma moving trillions of solar systems while Goku just says "Kamehameha". Specially when Akuma doesn´t even have a reason to worry or move away because he hasnt shown to be able to sense ki like Goku can.

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    • Why is the IT Kamehameha useless? Goku can charge up, then instantly tp in front of Oni, then behind, back to front, to the side, and back to the front, and fire, so it's obviously gonna keep Oni on his toes. With speed equalized, Oni can probably dodge it, but now Oni is gonna have a harder time keeping up. It's certainly not useless.

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    • @AO. Because that's a Goku MUCH more down the line. Otherwise, Goku would be capable of spamming IT, which he doesn't yet. Also, any super experienced fighter can do that. It's not a special ability of Goku.

      @Miles. Once again. He has never done that. Ever. Not once has Goku tracked someone down with IT to do an IT Kamehameha. That's reaching. And it's out of character. Akuma doesn't have to be worried to get bored and move on when his opponent is nowhere to be found.

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    • PTSOXMONKEY99 wrote:
      Why is the IT Kamehameha useless? Goku can charge up, then instantly tp in front of Oni, then behind, back to front, to the side, and back to the front, and fire, so it's obviously gonna keep Oni on his toes. With speed equalized, Oni can probably dodge it, but now Oni is gonna have a harder time keeping up. It's certainly not useless.

      you and me are both asking the same question

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    • Not to mention that, again, Akuma has no knowledge of Goku´s techniques.

      He wouldn´t know to go intangible for a Solar Flare, he wouldn´t be able to figure out if Goku teleported away or just dissapeared, and as explained earlier, Akuma has no way to track Goku down.


      Even if Asura has 6 hands and Goku only has too, he has shown to be able to keep up with opponent with multiple hands, like Ten Shin Han back on earth.


      At the bare mininum, he would be able to dodge or counter 1/3rd of the raging demon, which is not a 1 hit kill, its a combo.

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    • @PT. Never done it like that before. And once again. Akuma can teleport and fire powerful blasts of ki too. IT Kamehameha isn't useless per se. It just will NOT be a reason for Goku to win.

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    • @Miles

      Tien was only using afterimages to make it look like he had several hands.

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    • @Cal

      But he did, when he tp'd in front of Cell then fired.

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    • @Miles. If I had intangibility and was blinded, I would go intangible to prevent me from getting rekt.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @PT. Never done it like that before. And once again. Akuma can teleport and fire powerful blasts of ki too. IT Kamehameha isn't useless per se. It just will NOT be a reason for Goku to win.

      yes he can teleport, but he doesn't know where goku would be and he can't track goku's movements 

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @AO. Because that's a Goku MUCH more down the line. Otherwise, Goku would be capable of spamming IT, which he doesn't yet. Also, any super experienced fighter can do that. It's not a special ability of Goku.

      @Miles. Once again. He has never done that. Ever. Not once has Goku tracked someone down with IT to do an IT Kamehameha. That's reaching. And it's out of character. Akuma doesn't have to be worried to get bored and move on when his opponent is nowhere to be found.

      Are you implying he CAN´T track people down with his ki?

      He has done so with Gohan in the Buu Saga and in the Ressurrection F saga.

      Not to mention Cell, which is the most clear example of this fight.


      Also, Akuma would have insane ADHD for getting bored for not seeing his opponent for 3 seconds, instead of wondering where he went or if he just dissapeared.


      I think the element of surprise AND in the fact that his teleport is canonically instant, that this fight would end exactly like in Goku vs Cell in the Cell Games.


      Exept this time, Oni won´t regrow his head.

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    • That's not spamming in the slightest aspect of the definition, @PTS. That fits more under the definition of a "gambit"

      @AO. Same with Goku to Akuma. He can't predict where the latter will be, just like Akuma can't predict where Goku will be.

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    • Also, where did you get that it takes MINUTES for Goku to charge up a Kamehameha?

      In the show it doesnt get past 10 seconds. 

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      That's not spamming in the slightest aspect of the definition, @PTS. That fits more under the definition of a "gambit"

      @AO. Same with Goku to Akuma. He can't predict where the latter will be, just like Akuma can't predict where Goku will be.

      How can Akuma predict Goku? Goku can always sense his ki down.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      That's not spamming in the slightest aspect of the definition, @PTS. That fits more under the definition of a "gambit"

      @AO. Same with Goku to Akuma. He can't predict where the latter will be, just like Akuma can't predict where Goku will be.

      he can thanks to ki sensing, his reach galactic, so im pretty sure he can track him

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    • Not sure about the Buu saga (though it was likely that he was checking to see if his son was alive, which is much more important), but he had a serious reason and was being informed about Frieza. Not to mention that it required a ton of ki to lock on to then, and Akuma doesn't have the amount of ki RoF Gohan has.

      I'm talking about a spirit bomb. Not a kamehameha. The IT kamehameha argument was about that Akuma isn't gonna wait there like Cell to set up the attack. Not to mention the attack blowing Cell apart (which you guys are just assuming that it will one-shot because of that) seems more like plot, as Cell later isn't instantly obliterated by the much stronger SSJ2 Gohan. Also, once again, Akuma has his own teleporation and ki blasts. I feel like we're going in circles here.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @Miles. If I had intangibility and was blinded, I would go intangible to prevent me from getting rekt.

      How would you know some Orangi gi wearing monkey guy doing a ridiculous pose would end up in you getting blinded?

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    • How was that a gambit? He wanted to fire a kamehameha at Cell, but didn't want to take the planet with him. So he tp'd down to him from his position in the sky to right in front of him. You're saying the the IT wouldn't be an effective way of attacking, when my example proves that it would be. Goku had been working with the technique for a while by the Cell saga, so it's not to unbelievable that he could use it in rapid succession. He even did it when he tp'd to Roshi's house and came back like a second after. There's your spam.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Not sure about the Buu saga (though it was likely that he was checking to see if his son was alive, which is much more important), but he had a serious reason and was being informed about Frieza. Not to mention that it required a ton of ki to lock on to then, and Akuma doesn't have the amount of ki RoF Gohan has.

      I'm talking about a spirit bomb. Not a kamehameha. The IT kamehameha argument was about that Akuma isn't gonna wait there like Cell to set up the attack. Not to mention the attack blowing Cell apart (which you guys are just assuming that it will one-shot because of that) seems more like plot, as Cell later isn't instantly obliterated by the much stronger SSJ2 Gohan. Also, once again, Akuma has his own teleporation and ki blasts. I feel like we're going in circles here.

      he can just teleport to king kai's place and back when he's done charging the kamehameha which doesn't even take 1 minute, and akuma doesn't have ki sensing which means he can't follow him

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    • @AO. Sensing isn't precog. He can know where he is. He can't predict his movements. Sensing is gonna be pretty useless here, since Akuma can't go invisible or has afterimages or illusions.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @AO. Sensing isn't precog. He can know where he is. He can't predict his movements. Sensing is gonna be pretty useless here, since Akuma can't go invisible or has afterimages or illusions.

      goku has faced afterimages before, sure he can't completly predict akuma's movement, but he can at least know where he is

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    • you what im going to sleep im tired, lets continue this tomorrow

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    • Also, the only reason Cell stood there was because he thought he had called Goku's bluff. He knew Goku would never destroy the planet where he was raised and all his family and friends were on, so he was lulled into a false sense of security. That's why he was so baffled when Goku suddenly tp'd in front of him

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @AO. Sensing isn't precog. He can know where he is. He can't predict his movements. Sensing is gonna be pretty useless here, since Akuma can't go invisible or has afterimages or illusions.

      Sensing is actually the key factor that gives Goku the ability to be freely able to charge any attacks he wants, launch them and teleport back instantly to a place Akuma has literally no way to track down.


      Even if he was ADHD and gets bored in literally less than a minute and leaves the planet, Goku can still teleport in front, behind, on top, or under Akuma and fire Kamehameha´s until one of them hits and kills him.

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    • Okay. For everyone else here. Look at your argument. If Goku has done that before, then great. Continue with your post. If he hasn't then don't continue.

      @Miles. Not my point at all. The point is the fact that I got blinded. I'm not going to let someone hit me while I'm down when I have an unbeatable defense.

      @PTS. Firstly, if you have a victor in your head, you shouldn't have made this thread with bias. Secondly, no it hasn't. Goku deceived everyone thinking he was that fed up. This isn't even an argument. It's clear as day that wasn't a spam. And your spam example also isn't spam either, because one, he wasn't in combat, two, he wasn't using an attack, and three, it was a demonstration where he grabbed glasses. And I already said that it isn't useless, but just that it's not as effective as people are making it, especially with counters.

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    • Stay up for a couple more minutes, this is already kind of over anyways.

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    • @Miles. You know what. I'm just gonna change my argument to suit your argument of out of character. Akuma stays intangible until Goku gets too tired and then solidifies inside Goku. Or planet busts and gets it over with (funny enough, that's not out of character) There. No diff at all.

      @PTS. Yes. You're starting to follow my point. Because Oni doesn't have the same mindset as Cell. Goku knew (or at least assumed) what everyone would do, and doesn't have that luxury this time around.

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    • Wait. Oni Akuma´s range is planetary while Goku´s Stellar with ki blasts and attacks.


      Okay, i think this thread is already over. 

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    • Don't got a winner, just threw my two cents in, someone tried to throw it back, threw two dimes in, then two quarters, then two bucks. Notice how I never said who'd win.

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    • Isnt this massive difference in range enough to end this battle?

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    • @Miles. That would matter if Goku actually abused range over a few hundred kilometers.

      @PTS. In that case, I apologize for getting into it with you.

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    • I'm just gonna let this post go it's own path

      Goku: 7

      Akuma: 6

      Inconclusive: 2

      What kind of a monster have I created...

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    • Well, this is my take on this fight.

      Goku can sense Akuma on a Multi-Universal scale since the Cell Saga. So no matter where he goes, Goku will be able to track him down and launch Instant Kamehamehas.

      Goku has far superior range, making all attacks he launches FAR more likely to hit Oni than any raging demon reaching Goku.

      Akuma Can not sense nor teleport to Goku if he decides to leave the planet and charge attacks as he pleases.

      Goku still has had more martial arts training in terms of time and masters.

      The Spirit bomb would indeed cause damage to Akuma and Goku has literally all the time he needs to charge it and throw it at Akuma.

      Goku and Akuma are both at the same speed in this battle, so i can see Goku blocking/countering 1/3rds of the raging demon, which would leave a human in coma. (Notice the "human" in that sentence.), not to mention Goku´s pure heart would reduce the damage of the technique, which is not a 1 hit kill neither in the street fighter series nor in Asura´s Wrath, since Asura (Who isnt in any shape or form "pure of heart", to be able to easly counter it without any indication of getting comatose.


      So, for these reasons, i can safely say that, in my opinion, Goku would win this fight.

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    • False for point one. Even Super!Goku doesn't have that range.

      Goku has lost to people with range in the hundreds of meters. Range means nothing.

      Never done that before, so moot. Please stop arguing with points of things that Goku has never used on a combat situation before? Otherwise, Akuma leads with planet busting GG.

      Masters, sure, even though all of his masters basically learned from Korrin. But time? Not in the slightest. Not that it matters anyway.

      False. He doesn't have all the time, especially not in character.

      Other than some monkey traits, Goku is basically a human, considering he dan contract human viruses, procreate with humans, etc. And Gouken would like a word with the pure of heart thing. Finally, canonically, it has been a one shot in the series if it weren't for some soul shenanigans here and there. Asura blocked it blow for blow.

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    • "Gouken survived the Shun Goku Satsu by being pure of heart and using the power of nothing, which is effectively not giving yourself into a killing intent, just like Goku."

      Prove that to be the case; I may give the vote to Goku. But, that's now how Gouken survived the technique at all. It was through literally emptying his soul (hence the name, power of nothingness). Here's my reference

      I give my vote to Akuma.

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    • Goku: 7

      Akuma: 7

      Inconclusive: 2

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    • Objection!


      1.-His page on this wikia clearly states that his instant transmision can reach that far.

      And his sensing its at least star level, which is far enough for Goku to keep Akuma on his sights.

      2.-Range means that Goku has an advantage in this battle, i am pointing that out.

      3.-"Never has done that before" or "He hasnt done that in a very long time" is not an argument as long it´s stated on his profile.

      4.-"Masters, sure, even though all of his masters basically learned from Korrin. But time? Not in the slightest. Not that it matters anyway."

      King Kai learned from Korrin? The Instant Transmission Aliens from Yardat learned from Korrin? Are you being serious here?

      Not to mention Goku has larger experience with different types of opponents.

      Akuma has only fought super powered humans with very limited range.

      5.-But he does, I have already explained Akuma doesnt have ki sensing nor is able to teleport to a ki source instantly like Goku can, also, are you just using "in character" to try and invalidate all methods Goku can use to win? That is not a good argument.

      6.-It was implied Goku got the heart disease from Yardat, i don´t see how you are expecting to Prove human anatomy is the same as Saiyan Anatomy.

      Not to mention that we have aleady proven the fact that the Raging Demon is not a one hit kill.

      It didnt kill Gouken and it didnt kill Bison. (Before you try to refute this, remember that the SF4 interlude shorts are considered canon in this website. where it shows Bison surviving the end of SF2.)


      @Austrian

      Looks like i made a mistake.

      That doesnt matter as long Goku has the superior range.

      It is kind of weird to give your vote when almost all of cal´s points have been refuted in the thread, tho.

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    • My ponta have been refuted? You're arguing in cirrcles as,

      That's for IT. And Super only at that.

      2. Not if he doesn't abuse this. Name one time Goku has attacked someone across planetary distances and I'll concede otherwise, your argument is flawed.

      3. False on so many levels. Read the Standard Battle Assumptions please.

      4. Fair enough. I'll admit I was wrong. And even then, Yardrats didn't have a master/student interaction.

      5. See point three.

      6. Burden of proof is on you to prove so. And there is far more evidence proving Goku having human anatomy than otherwise, and even then. Doesn't matter as this is a SOUL ATTACK

      7. Gouken nearly died. Bison survived through soul transfer.

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:

      3.-"Never has done that before" or "He hasnt done that in a very long time" is not an argument as long it´s stated on his profile.

      I'm not putting a vote in this thread, but I have to disagree with this.

      Saying someone hasn't done something in a fight or rarely uses it are legitamate arguments. VS threads aren't just arguing what someone can hypothetically do with their abilities. It also has to do with things in character and putting their combat stradegies into question.

      If one has never used an ability in a fight or in character wouldn't, then it is fair to assume that they would not use that move in this match. Or at least not start off with it.

      We're not just arguing stat vs stat or power vs power. We're arguing character vs character. What someone has or had not done/will and will not do are important things to consider in a fight.

      Also if we're going to say Goku will do this one move to win a fight. And the fact he's never done this and in character wouldn't are irrelevant. Then why can't I just say Akuma immediately busts the planet right as the fight starts and wins that way?

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    • Man.

      1.-And i am arguing for IT, what were you thinking about?

      2.-MY argument is fraud? You are the one ignoring that Akuma neither has attacked someone across planetary distance nor that it isnt in his character to go all out from the start.

      Not to mention you are attempting to refute some of the methods of victory for Goku i have said by just saying "Its not in his character".

      Also, i forgot to say it again.

      Goku can sense evil ki, i don´t see how much will you push that Goku wouldnt eventually try to actually murder Akuma in order to prevent him to destroy planets or people Goku might care about.

      3.-You are the one arguing that, don´t try to pin your logical fallacies on me.

      4.-They thought Goku IT, tho.

      5.-Okay then, prove Akuma can sense ki and teleport to it instantly.

      I will be waiting.

      6.-What? The heart virus? Its the same for both ways. Prove it was a regular virus Goku got on earth.

      The Raging Demon has shown to be able to be countered by Asura in the DLC and even if Asura does receive one blow, the game doesnt instantly kill you, so maybe all Raging Demons in the battle are non-canon now?

      Why didnt Asura die? I think its easy to accept that he isnt as pure as Gouken and he didnt get Comatose like the latter.

      Okay, that MIGHT be game mechanics, but even the Street Fighter games have shown that it is not a one hit kill both plotwise (Bison and Gouken) and gameplay wise (13-33 hit combo, half life bar.).

      So both sides favor my argument.

      7.-Gouken did get comatose, i still have my doubts about Bison, but its really not that important.

      Asura managed to survive the Raging Demon by stopping blows. Assuming he dodged/countered evey single blow or just one is game mechanics and invalid in this debate.

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    • @Ryu

      My friend here wants you to believe that, but Akuma actually slowly builds up the fight to find out if his opponent is worhty.

      Also, Goku would be able to IT before the planet explotes.

      Also, range greatly matters in this battle but Cal is ignoring that and saying Goku EXCLISIVELY goes for Melee.

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    • @Miles I know Akuma would slowly build up a fight. But if you're arguing that what someone does in character is irrelevant in a fight, then I can just say Akuma will planet bust right off the bat. And if Akuma immediately just one shots the planet, especially out of nowhere, Goku will likely not be able to IT in time.

      But that's besides the point. I'm just saying that unlike what you said, bringing up what someone does and does not do in their fights are legitamate arguments.

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    • In summary, i think Instant Transmission Kamehamehas and Goku´s ki sensing are enough for him to beat Akuma.

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    • You said sensing, so I refuted sensing. And even then, Goku had trouble sensing familiar ki from interstellar distances for IT. I.e., Namekians.

      Problem is, this is Oni, who in character will go all out. No humanity at all. And while has less casual range than Goku, has enough normal range to make it a small point.

      What? You're the one arguing for out of character responses.

      You can teach someone without having a student/master relationship, but this isn't important.

      Burden of Proof fallacy.

      Burden of proof fallacy, again.

      In a cutscene is the only time that was used in AR. Gameplay, 6-C characters can duke it out with Low 7-C characters. I've explained a dozen times how they survived. Power of nothingness and Bison's constant use of body and soul switching.

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    • (Last response before i go to bed, i dont think this is going anywhere. Neither of us is willing to accept the other´s opinion as absolutely correct, so i think this will go on until someone else votes.)


      I said sensing, and i claimed that Goku could use that to keep tabs on Akuma just like he could teleport in front of Perfect Cell, i also claimed Akuma does not have the ability to sense other ki sources.


      I know this is Oni, and in Asura´s Wrath, it doesnt show Oni destroying the planet out right in the start of the fight like @Ryu argues he would do, i think Oni still builds up his strenght to determine if someone is worhty of fighting him.


      I am saying that eventually Goku will fight to kill Akuma, because he is able to sense evil ki, and that could lead to Goku using Instant Kamehameha on Oni just like he did with Cell.


      I agree, it isnt really important. I just dont agree Akuma is superior to Goku in martial arts mastery, i will assume they are on a equal level for this thread from now own.

      Excuse me, but you are the one who said, and i quote "Other than some monkey traits, Goku is basically a human, considering he dan contract human viruses, procreate with humans, etc." I dont think you can assume goku is "basically a human" without evidence, specially on the "contract human viruses" part when it is unknown where Goku contracted said disease.


      https://youtu.be/Q3jlJbM6K5I?t=7m37s

      Okay in this part (Which could be considered game mechanics even if scripted) shows Akuma hitting Asura with the Raging Demon, Even if perfectly executed, the game still deals a blow to Asura´s lifebar. 

      This blow isnt an instant game over nor implies Asura´s soul got obliterated.

      https://youtu.be/aUB6jidsS5A?t=9m25s

      Now, this is Evil Ryu, but he also deals a Raging Demon on Asura.

      Asura managed to block some blows but still got hit as shown in the video.

      It is not an isntant kill nor it is implied Asura´s soul got obliterated in those blows he received.

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    • I'll agree that we'll just be arguing amongst ourselves circularly, so yeah. I won't respond on this again. I got my ideas down and don't need to follow this anymore.

      However, I will say that deciding to agree to disagree is actually pretty big of you and I commend that.

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    • So, as this is going nowhere shall we leave it as inconclusive?

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    • I'm going with Gouki here due to his absurd stamina, martial art skills/experience, intangibility and the Raging Demon.

      Gouki fought with Asura for 500 years, after which he turned to stone, broke out of that state and continued fighting even more. Goku's stamina is nowhere near this level. His stats will drop as the battle drags on and the battle will slowly tip in Gouki's favor.

      Also for people saying that Gouken survived the Raging Demon, that is partly wrong. Gouken did survive the Raging Demon, but he was comatose and essentially dead for years because his understanding of the Mu State was lacking. To achieve this state you should rid yourself of all human emotions, achieving spiritual perfection, free of fear, anger, pride, ego, worry, desire and doubt.

      Goku has no grasp whatsoever on this technique and has experienced those emotions before so he won't survive the Raging Demon. He has been consumed by the power of rage before (see Super Sayajin 1 transformation), he doesn't hesitate to kill his opponents if they are a threat, his desire to eat and get stronger is essentially unrivaled.

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote:
      I'm going with Gouki here due to his absurd stamina, martial art skills/experience, intangibility and the Raging Demon.

      Gouki fought with Asura for 500 years, after which he turned to stone, broke out of that state and continued fighting even more. Goku's stamina is nowhere near this level. His stats will drop as the battle drags on and the battle will slowly tip in Gouki's favor.

      Also for people saying that Gouken survived the Raging Demon, that is partly wrong. Gouken did survive the Raging Demon, but he was comatose and essentially dead for years because his understanding of the Mu State was lacking. To achieve this state you should rid yourself of all human emotions, achieving spiritual perfection, free of fear, anger, pride, ego, worry, desire and doubt.

      Goku has no grasp whatsoever on this technique and has experienced those emotions before so he won't survive the Raging Demon. He has been consumed by the power of rage before (see Super Sayajin 1 transformation), he doesn't hesitate to kill his opponents if they are a threat, his desire to eat and get stronger is essentially unrivaled.

      ok what? goku is pure of heart, and that basically the weakness of the raging demon, asura was hell mad, but he still didn't get one shotted, not to mention, that even after bein consumed by his rage and turning super saiyan, he still spared frieza, goku has higher AP, Dura, and Speed (instant transmission), he could use it to his advantage, and remeber goku is way more skilled than akuma, or at least he has shown to be better in my opinion, he is a fighting genious, he could come up with a stratagy

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    • Goku's pure of heart is completely different from being a void spiritually. Goku cannot get rid of his emotions, he desires to fight strong opponents, he indulges in food etc. As long as he cannot get rid of these, he will fall to the Raging Demon. And Gouki can can throw it out all day, even has a stronger version of it.

      Also sure Goku is a martial arts genius, but so is Gouki. Master of the Satsujin Ken, so skilled in fact, that he has yet to fight a worthy opponent. And with much, much more experience than Goku.

      As for Goku's teleport, Gouki can also go intangible as I said above.

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote:
      Goku's pure of heart is completely different from being a void spiritually. Goku cannot get rid of his emotions, he desires to fight strong opponents, he indulges in food etc. As long as he cannot get rid of these, he will fall to the Raging Demon. And Gouki can can throw it out all day, even has a stronger version of it.

      Also sure Goku is a martial arts genius, but so is Gouki. Master of the Satsujin Ken, so skilled in fact, that he has yet to fight a worthy opponent. And with much, much more experience than Goku.

      As for Goku's teleport, Gouki can also go intangible as I said above.

      like i said, being pure of heart is the weakness of the raging demon, plus asura didn't get affected by it, how is he much more experienced than goku, gouki has no knowlage about goku's IT so he wouldn't know to be intangible when goku chains it with an attack, he also can't track goku's movementsand goku has higher AP, and he can fight at long range as well, he isn't an idiot, if Gouki would use the raging demon, he would sense the danger and teleport away, yeah gouki can teleport, but not like goku, goku can keep tabs on him via ki sensing, and prepare a kamehameha, and cuz IT is instantaneous, he would take right to the face

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    • I already told you being pure of heart isn't the same with being void spiritually, I'm not going to repeat myself.

      Goku doesn't have knowledge on intangibility either.

      How in the world would Goku sense the danger of the Raging Demon? He doesn't know what it does, how it does it. Even if he had precognition, he wouldn't know.

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    • Goku: 7

      Akuma: 8

      Inconclusive: 2

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote: I already told you being pure of heart isn't the same with being void spiritually, I'm not going to repeat myself.

      Goku doesn't have knowledge on intangibility either.

      How in the world would Goku sense the danger of the Raging Demon? He doesn't know what it does, how it does it. Even if he had precognition, he wouldn't know.

      The same is true for Akuma. Also, Goku has never let himself be hit for a technique blindly.

      He can sense evil ki, so he will probably watch out for foul blows from the start.

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    • And again, Asura survived the Raging Demon from both Oni and Evil ryu by just blocking/countering SOME blows. Its a combo. All hits must land for the soul to be destroyed.

      I have already posted videos from the game itself and some of you STILL believe its a one hit kill or that it is going to have the same effect on Goku than someone like M.Bison.

      Also,IT can also help Goku dodge it entirely.

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    • Cal says goku wouldn't be able to "predict" Akuma but that seems pretty wrong based off Goku being a martial arts genius and being able to predict hit's time stop for example, and sensing ki says otherwise. (goku was able to predict if Trunks would attack him during android saga by reading his heart.) heart read, sensing, + instant transmission, = damn good. I give goku with mid/easy difficulty..

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    • All peoplr who voted for Akuma because of the Raging Demon should try to explain why they think it will work on Goku if it didnt work on Asura TWICE.

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    • Lol at people who think Asura can survive the Raging Demon. He did becauae of game mechanics. Did you really think they'd let Oni win in Asura's game? Also saying Raging Demon isn't a OTK because it deals a percentage of hralth in damage in the game is really, really wrong.

      Also Goku can't escape it with IT since he needs to concentrate to perform it. Pretty hard to do when when your soul is getting attacked relentlessly.

      Again how would Goku know what the Demon does and hiw dangerous is it? Yes Goku can sense evil ki so what? Every opponent of his had en evil Ki. With that logic hr would never hit by anything.

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    • Not to mention that when he was fighting Evil Ryu, he only used two arms.

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    • Oh, so cherry picking which times its canon is your argument?

      Both of those Raging Demons ARE SCRIPTED events from the episode.

      This episode shows that you can reduce the damage in your soul by countering/blocking blows.

      If Asura can counter Evil ryu's Ranging demon with both of his hands, why cant Goku?


      I said Goku can sense evil ki to argue he wouldnt test Oni's strenght for long and will go for the kill sooner than later.

      Not to mention you are IMPLYING Goku would let himself be hit by an attack blindly just because "He wouldnt know it was dangerous!"

      He is in a battle, i think its safe to assume that anything your opponent is doing has the purpouse of killing you.

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    • BUMp

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    • Well…Oni can win this more and btw despite being a pure heart Oni can still kill via the RD because Gouken who is pure hearted i think (cause he is a pacifist plus tried to make the assassin's fist more controlled and not just kill but he needed to take out his soul to live plus Akuma said the more sins the more painful but not if you are sinless u live

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    • Goku: 7

      Akuma: 9

      Inconclusive: 2

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    • Are people even listening to me at this point?

      Democracy was a mistake.

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    • TISSG7Redgrave wrote: Well…Oni can win this more and btw despite being a pure heart Oni can still kill via the RD because Gouken who is pure hearted i think (cause he is a pacifist plus tried to make the assassin's fist more controlled and not just kill but he needed to take out his soul to live plus Akuma said the more sins the more painful but not if you are sinless u live


      Please read the post.

      Goku can block the raging demon just as Asura can. Asura survived it TWICE and my opponents have NOT disproven the obvious favt that the raging demon CAN be countered.

      Asura DID NOT transfer his soul anywhere. And he is obviously not as pure as Gouken.

      If you cant disprove Asura's feats, Goku SHOULD WIN.

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    • Really.

      I dont think this match should end until someone who voted for Akuma explains this obvious proof that the raging demon is a combo and NOT a 1 hit kill.

      https://youtu.be/Q3jlJbM6K5I?t=7m37s Okay in this part (Which could be considered game mechanics even if scripted) shows Akuma hitting Asura with the Raging Demon, Even if perfectly executed, the game still deals a blow to Asura´s lifebar.

      This blow isnt an instant game over nor implies Asura´s soul got obliterated.

      https://youtu.be/aUB6jidsS5A?t=9m25s

      Asura DID NOT transfer his soul anywhere and his soul is not as pure as Gouken.

      This only means one thing: It can be blocked and can be survived multiple times.

      With the raging demon out of the way, Goku has the edge on literally every aspect but stamina.

      Asura survived TWO Raging Demons. Why cant Goku?

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:
      Are people even listening to me at this point?

      Democracy was a mistake.

      I've listened and here is my response to some of your statements.

      Asura managed to withstand the effects of the Raging Demon twice! He also didn't need to use the power of nothingness either; therefore, Goku should be able to withstand it!

      Use some deductive reasoning man, if the raging demon attacks the soul; Asura was able to withstand it then logically Asura has a feat which gives him resistance to soul manipulation. Which as far as I know, Goku doesn't have (resistance to soul manipulation). You also made a mistake of assuming the power of nothingness is the one & only way to counter the raging demon, which is not really the case at all. If one has shown feats of withstanding damage to the soul, then that's all you really need.

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    • Asura literally never faced any soul attack before in the Non-Canon Episode nor in the main game.

      And the method he used to counter the raging demon twice is...Punching back.

      He blocked Evil Ryu´s Raging Demon with two hands.


      So, i find that most people who voted for Akuma because "the raging demon is a DEFINITIVE one hit kill and Goku doesnt get ANYTHING by countering blows nor having a pure heart" are flat-out Wanking.

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    • and yet that's a non-canon episode so Asura doesn't have that for real… if that's the case you know ANYONE can just do that like idk Gill or M. Bison.

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    • You are confusing Non-Canon Akuma and Main Timeline Akuma.

      Main Timeline Akuma is still High 7-A to 6-C. All Street Fighter characters (Exept maybe Ingrid) are on that range.

      Maybe characters on that tier are just not strong enough to survive the attack.

      Just as cal said, Gill can RESURRECT. and Bison can SOUL TRANSFER.



      Now, since this is a non-canon episode it is also valid to assume the Raging Demon from this Akuma is just not as strong as the regular Raging Demon since someone with no resistance to soul attacks can block it or endure multiple uses of this technique on him.


      There is literally nothing Asura has that Goku wouldn´t have on this situation.

      Also, most of you who voted for Akuma still ignore that Goku can charge his attacks as much as he wants with Instant Transmission and use it just like he did with Cell.

      Goku KNOWS Akuma is evil and will eventually go for the kill because of his evil ki sensing.

      And the Spirit Bomb would have effect on Akuma.

      Not to mention Cal thinks Goku takes MINUTES to charge attacks.


      Sorry, but what else is there left to discuss here?

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    • "Asura literally never faced any soul attack before in the Non-Canon Episode nor in the main game."

      I think you've forgotten about the raging demon, which is odd considering you've made a very big point at how Asura was able to withstand it.

      "And the method he used to counter the raging demon twice is...Punching back. He blocked Evil Ryu´s Raging Demon with two hands."

      And this changes the fact that the raging demon does damage to the soul? You do know that attacks that harm the soul don't need some abstract portrayal to prove it does indeed harm the soul right? And no, you don't just counter such a technique by punching back. You just have a resistance to such techniques, think of it like Superman physically blocking a knife stab (if you don't get it, I mean that sure he performed some manoeuvre to block it, but due to his durability a normal human doing the same thing would just get his arms pierced).

      "the raging demon is a DEFINITIVE one hit kill and Goku doesn't get ANYTHING by countering blows nor having a pure heart" are flat-out Wanking."

      Talking about wank, it's funny that you accuse others of doing so when you think having a "pure heart" should play a major role whilst being hit by a move which harms the soul. What a joke.

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    • "I think you've forgotten about the raging demon, which is odd considering you've made a very big point at how Asura was able to withstand it."

      I wasn´t refering to that, but lemme explain myself better.

      Asura hasn´t faced soul atttacks in his main game nor in the non-canon episodes BEFORE the Raging Demon nor has shown any damage to his soul.

      Of course, he also didnt need to tranfer his soul to another body, ressurect or embrace the power of Nothingness.

      "And this changes the fact that the raging demon does damage to the soul? You do know that attacks that harm the soul don't need some abstract portrayal to prove it does indeed harm the soul right? And no, you don't just counter such a technique by punching back. You just have a resistance to such techniques, think of it like someone physically blocking a spatial attack."

      In most fictional verses, destroying ones soul kills them or turns them into brainless bodies of meat, something that has happened in the street Fighter verse. (Gill needed to "resurrect" in the Udon Comics, Bison in Street Fighter 2 "died", and Gouken did suffer physical damage.)

      So, with these examples i think i can surely confirm that the Raging Demon MUST show some physical contact or damage.

      Which is it logical for Asura to reduce/cancel damage by blocking the Raging Demon Combo.

      (In both this game and in Street Fighter its NOT considered a one hit attack, its a combo.

      Of course, the combo count in the games range from 13-31 hits, but if you consider that "game mechanics", in Street Fighter V it SHOWS Akuma delivering several blows to the opponent.

      So, does one hit from the Raging Demon combo will you or do you have to receive every single blow for the attack to destroy your soul?

      That is for you, Akuma voters to answer.

      since you claim that it is a one hit kill. 

      "Talking about wank, it's funny that you accuse others of doing so when you think having a "pure heart" should play a major role whilst being hit by a move which harms the soul. What a joke."

      I am not saying it completely negates the attack, but that having that state of mind does reduce the effect of it based on the technicallities of the attack itself in canon.

      But i admit i might be wrong by assuming that.

      It doesnt matter in my mind, since Goku can still block/counter it just as Asura can.

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    • (Be more conservative with the spaces, makes your post longer than it should it be)

      "In most fictional verses, destroying one's soul kills them or turns them into brainless bodies of meat, something that has happened in the street Fighter verse. (Gill needed to "resurrect" in the Udon Comics, Bison in Street Fighter 2 "died", and Gouken did suffer physical damage.)

      So, with these examples, I think I can surely confirm that the Raging Demon MUST show some physical contact or damage."

      I disagree with you completely, you're forgetting that "most fictional verses" don't live under the same roof. So you can't say "oh because soul attacks are portrayed this way in these different series; the raging demon has to conform to that portrayal as a result!" Actually, what is your point here? It seems to be something like "raging demon isn't soul damage because x, y and z verses portray it in this manner" but that would be a strange point to make considering that you've seemed to follow the notion that it does do soul damage.

      Alright, I'm going to propose something simple as to avoid any more confusion. You should prove either of the following objectively, that Goku does indeed have some form of resistance to soul damaging attacks or that the raging demon itself isn't a form of soul damage. Failure to obligate will result in this thread being very quickly shut down with Akuma as the victor. I urge you not to rush out a response.

      (I apologise for how weirdly formatted this post is by the way, how it's being like this is unknown to me).

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    • Goku wouldn't get hit with that attack anyway (even if he did he'd still win the match), and he outclasses akuma in nearly every category except stamina (which wouldn't come into play much at all) It would be robbing goku to give this to Akuma in my view

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    • Oh, i am just saying that the Raging Demon does not seem to only damage the soul of the opponent. I mean, it does, but it also shows physical damage.

      I am claiming Goku can block/counter some of the attacks from the Raging Demon combo, which would indeed do an unknown amount of damage to his soul, but not as much as getting hit by every single blow of the technique. Once again, Asura survived the attack twice, why do you instantly assume that means he has soul attack inmunity or resistance instead of thinking that dodging/countering/blocking blows takes some "soul damage" away? Remember that if you assume, you make an ass our of u and me.

      Also, i think determinating a debate by a challenge to me (And not letting the others who voted for Goku also have a word) is kind of unfair, don´t ya think? After all, most of you havent refuted the fact that Goku can use Instant Transmission to charge attacks and deliver them by sensing Akuma in a Stellar range, instead of just basing you arguments on a single technique Goku can dodge by teleporting away. Its not like Oni cannot be killed by physical damage as well or the spirit bomb´s advantage on evil beings like him.

      Most of the votes in Akuma´s favour have been refuted by futher arguments made by me and the development of the debate, so how about both of us work on answering each others questions?

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    • The way I see it, there are 2 possibilities:

      1. Asura has resistance to Soul damaging attacks

      2. Asura can do his own version of the Raging Demon. This is backed up by the fact that when E.Ryu and Asura exchange blows, a kanji is seen above each of their heads, a symbol exclusively associated with the Raging Demon in the SF verse. This is even further backed up with E.Ryu's Street Fighter Alpha 3 boss battle, Shin Akuma. They glide towards each other and exchange blows cancelling each-other's Raging Demon.

      Either way, Goku doesn't have either of these, nor does he have some kind of workaround to protect his soul.


      Also it's VERY out of character for Goku to teleport away from the battlefield and charge his Spirit Bomb. Even if he somehow managed to complete it, which is very unlikely, what prevents Gouki from going intangible and bypassing the Spirit Bomb entirely?

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    • Well, the way I see it, there are other possibilities like...

      Asura could have countered/blocked some blows, which weakened the Raging Demon enough to keep afloat.

      I really dont understand why do you instantly jump to the conclution of soul resistance when there is so much going on.

      But maybe, is it just because its the option that benefits you the most in this debate?


      Not to mention that he did not show anything of his "own version of the raging demon" in his fight with Oni, he legit punched out of it, so i think that dismisses that second possibility of yours.

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    • You cant just punch back an attack that damage the soul...blocking wouldnt help either because its not damaging his physical body...

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    • Oh yeah, lets not forget that non-canon Raging Demon might be weaker than the main one.

      I mean, it feailed to kill someone's soul twice. A soul that is in no way as pure as Gouken's or Goku's. I mean, lets not be biased and discuss all the cards on the table first.

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:
      Well, the way I see it, there are other possibilities like...

      Asura could have countered/blocked some blows, which weakened the Raging Demon enough to keep afloat.

      I really dont understand why do you instantly jump to the conclution of soul resistance when there is so much going on.

      No it's actually the most logical way. A soul attacking technique attacks something you can't even perceive. How can you protect something you can't perceive?

      Miles Romero12 wrote:
      Not to mention that he did not show anything of his "own version of the raging demon" in his fight with Oni, he legit punched out of it, so i think that dismisses that second possibility of yours.

      That's because he already did that with Evil Ryu so there's be no point to it. Also Oni didn't have the kanji above his head either, now you're saying Oni can't do the Demon either?

      EDIT: I won't be able to respond to this thread anymore for some hours.

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    • "why do you instantly assume that means he has soul attack immunity or resistance instead of thinking that dodging/countering/blocking blows takes some "soul damage" away?"

      Let's say you read a comic in where Superman punches a knife being thrown at him by a thug; in the process manages to break it. It makes more sense to say "Yeah Superman's durability and punching power would allow him to easily do that and come out unscathed" than to say "Superman took the knives power away (hence how he wasn't harmed); it's durability (hence how he managed to break it)."

      The same thing applies to Asura managing to punch out the Raging Demon, it's not the punches which managed to allow him to resist it's soul harming abilities it's just that Asura himself just has a resistance to damage to the soul. If there's a scan that's like "oh yeah just gotta punch in this specific way to make the soul damage null" then you have a point. But, there's nothing like that.

      "I think determinating a debate by a challenge to me (And not letting the others who voted for Goku also have a word) is kind of unfair, don´t ya think?"

      I think determining a debate via answering vital questions with something agreeable is more important than whether or not you find it to be unfair; I don't think I made it exclusive to you, so anyone could have answered my questions if need be & that'd be absolutely fine. Speaking of, you haven't answered my questions how I described. So thing's are not looking good at all for the life expectancy of this thread.

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    • Just leaving this here before I go.

      Please don't start with the Goku is pure of heart stuff. He is by his world's standards, he's not by what Buddhism considers sin (the Raging Demon is based on it). No matter who it is, you are definitely not allowed to kill any sentient being. Goku is kinda far from being pure considering this. Also I mentioned several other times his other negative emotions like rage and gluttony. So yeah, Goku is not pure when it comes to Divine Punishment.

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    • (Gotta sleep. Sorry)

      Alright. No more pure of heart Goku it is.

      I am just saying he is "pure-r" than Asura. And he still suevived the attack twice.

      Also, why do you rely on a single technique? Are you all gonna ignore all the ways Goku has to beat Akuma that were stated earlier in the thread? Democracy is indeed a mistake if most reasons for the votes have been contradicted already

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    • "Devilmite Beam: it amplifies all the dark thoughts of his opponent."

      Goku is selfish, gluttonous, easy to rage and sometimes even kills his opponents but by DB standards those arent "bad". Just because the raging demon can kill someone in its verse because of those reasons doesnt mean it would work on someone in a different verse with completely different standards. Verse equalization kills the raging demon.

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    • RadicalMrR wrote:
      "Devilmite Beam: it amplifies all the dark thoughts of his opponent."

      Goku is selfish, gluttonous, easy to rage and sometimes even kills his opponents but by DB standards those arent "bad". Just because the raging demon can kill someone in its verse because of those reasons doesnt mean it would work on someone in a different verse with completely different standards. Verse equalization kills the raging demon.

      I'm actually glad you mentioned this because there is someone exactly the same as Goku is SF. Gouken,

      His motto is "Concentrate not on destroying your foe, but on attaining your own victory." He never kills his opponents. When studying the Ansatsuken (fighting style expecially tailored to killing you opponent) under Goutetsu, Gouken developed his own fighting style (Hado no Chikara), caring more for the spiritual aspect and harmony. He developed his Hadoken and Shoryuken into self-defense techniques and removed their killing potential. He refused his first student because he sought revenge and that was a dark path according to Gouken. 

      When challenged by Akuma, he defeated him and spared his life.

      And yet he fell to Akuma's Raging Demon the next time they battled


      Gouken is exactly the same as Goku, if not more peaceful than him, since he doesn't kill. If Gouken can be defeated by the Raging Demon, there's no reason why Goku wouldn't.


      EDIT: Also check this out:

      Goku: For you to cry...for you to beg of me must have been awfully difficult I bet. I understand, it wasn't that your fellow Saiyajins had been killed that was rough on you, having to do as he told you must have been worse then anything you could stand. I hated you so much...but you had your Saiyajin pride and now I too will share in some of that pride of yours. I am a Saiyajin raised on Earth! For all the Saiyajins that were killed by you (Freeza). As well as all the Namekians here. I am going to beat you!

      Goku has felt hatred, pride, has killed. How isn't that sinful?

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:

      Also, why do you rely on a single technique? Are you all gonna ignore all the ways Goku has to beat Akuma that were stated earlier in the thread? Democracy is indeed a mistake if most reasons for the votes have been contradicted already

      Almost forgot to answer you. If you read my very first comment on this thread, the Raging Demon isn't the sole reason that my vote goes to Gouki. I said he has way more stamina that Goku, has more experience and his intangibility is an invaluable asset.

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    • Winning a matchup isn't about who was the most ways to off someone. It's about what's more likely to happen.

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    • Goku instant kamehameha's Akuma into oblivion. The raging demon technique won't work either since goku doesn't have any negative feelings in his body.

      Edit: By the way, why do people assume Akuma has better stamina than Goku?

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Winning a matchup isn't about who was the most ways to off someone. It's about what's more likely to happen.

      So, even if Goku WILL go for the kill early and can instantly surprise him with insta kamehameha, you think Akuma will go for a Raging Demon right at the beggining of the fight? (Ignoring he started slow with asura and that it is not in his character to go all out in the beggining, the raging demon is the most powerful thing he has, ya know?)

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    • The IT Kamehameha isn't a 1 hit kill everyone. DB characters have a thing about less durability without their guards up. Likely why Cell was obliterated in one hit. Also, @FTW. 500 years of straight up fighting with Asura.

      Oni has no character. No morals. It even says that on the SF Wiki. Saying he'll not go for the Raging Demon is like saying that Goku won't go for the Kamehameha. Also, you're saying Goku will go for a technique he only used once ever, and you're telling me that Akuma won't go for the Raging Demon?

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Also, you're saying Goku will go for a technique he only used once ever, and you're telling me that Akuma won't go for the Raging Demon?

      This. Goku has used that attack like two times. He used it again against Beerus and it did nothing to him.

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    • Really.

      Someone explain to me why Goku being hit by thr raging demon is "more likely" than Goku using an instant kamehameha?

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    • The real cal howard wrote: The IT Kamehameha isn't a 1 hit kill everyone. DB characters have a thing about less durability without their guards up. Likely why Cell was obliterated in one hit. Also, @FTW. 500 years of straight up fighting with Asura.

      Oni has no character. No morals. It even says that on the SF Wiki. Saying he'll not go for the Raging Demon is like saying that Goku won't go for the Kamehameha. Also, you're saying Goku will go for a technique he only used once ever, and you're telling me that Akuma won't go for the Raging Demon?

      Yes. I am sayong just that. Its more likely for Goku to go for the kill FIRST.

      There are three notions to this. 1.-Oni STILL starts slow and wants to test his opponent to see if it is worthy to fight him. (Proof of this? The Asura vs Oni battle. If Oni didnt go for the kill at the start with asura, why would he do it with Goku?!

      2.-Goku can sense evil ki. (Aka. He wouldnt play around as long as you think. Goku knowing Oni is evil from thr start is a huge advantage.)

      So, this pretty much means Goku would go for the kill first.

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    • Someone should count FTW's vote.

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    • Could someone tell me the score? I've been gone awhile

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    • 9 Oni-8 Goku with FTW's vote for Goku.

      2 inconclusive.

      We are still discussing it though.

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    • "Goku would be more likely to go for the kill first"

      The same guy who gave up to Cell? And only killed two people as an adult, both in the Buu saga?

      "Oni STILL starts slow"

      Oni has discarded his remaining humanity (saying that it is of no use to "evil incarnate"), his identity as Akuma, and his prominent moral code as a warrior; he will fight anyone to the death, regardless of condition, rather than seeking out worthy opponents to fight in a fair match. His presence is such that certain characters even refer to him as a god in their win quotes.

      Straight from the SF Wiki

      "Goku can sense evil ki"

      Aside from the fact that this only happened once with Raditz, and Namekians have demonstrated that much better, didn't stop him from using less power against Frieza as an SS, not instantly IT'ing to Mechanics Frieza to deck him in the schnoz, and giving up to let Gohan fight in the Cell Games.

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:

      Yes. I am sayong just that. Its more likely for Goku to go for the kill FIRST.

      This is funny. Goku goes out of his way to search strong fighters. He was warned by King Kai that Freeza was evil and very strong, but nope, Goku was excited to fight him. So no, Goku won't go for the kill without a good fist fight. Also as it's being said several times, Instant Kameha is not infallible and Goku has used it twice in his whole fighting history.

      Someone should count FTW's vote.

      Not really. You insist everyone that voted Oni should defend their arguments, and yet when another dude comes waltzing in saying "Goku instant kamehameha's Akuma into oblivion" when the argument is ongoing, you say count that vote? Yeah, that's not how this works.

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    • Goku let Frieza reach 100 percent and gave Cell a Senzu Bean. It's established throughout that Goku values a good fight over efficient victory or even his/others' safety. He's not more likely to go immediately for the kill than Asura.

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    • So...Two responses i guess.

      @Cal 1.that didnt change the fact goku went for the kill against Cell before he knew he could regenerate. (See. Goku's insta kamehame against cell.)

      2.-He still went slow against Asura. Wasnt you the one who claimed we shouldnt just take stats and statement at face value? You cannot change thr fact that Oni didnt start with a raging demon in that fight.

      3.-see point 1

      @Scarlet 1.-I said likely. Oni likes to measure his opponents before going all out. See point 2 of cal's segment.

      2.-Yes, its a vote and we should count it.

      I dont see you admiting most of the early votes for Akuma are invalid now, huh?

      And you still have not asnwered me with proof Asura has Soul protection or that the raging demon is a one hit kill.

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    • Seeing as you guys are always so keen to assume the outcome of a match solely based on a certain character trait. I think my point still stands. This is cell saga Goku, a.k.a. the Goku that came up with idea of doing the IT+Kamehameha, after taking some damage this Goku will resort to this technique which will destroy Akuma.  If you say Akuma can one-shot this Goku, you're wanking. 

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    • Cell Saga Goku was willing to risk his son and everyone on the planet getting killed restoring Cell's health for the sake of a "fair match." He's not nearly as bloodlusted or efficient as you guys are saying he is. His whole point is that he longs for a good fight.

      And yes Akuma can theoretically one shot Goku with soul based attacks, as Goku has no resistance towards them.

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:

      I dont see you admiting most of the early votes for Akuma are invalid now, huh?

      Your own words:

      1. It is kind of weird to give your vote when almost all of cal´s points have been refuted in the thread, tho

      2. I dont think this match should end until someone who voted for Akuma explains this obvious proof that the raging demon is a combo and NOT a 1 hit kill.


      FTW395: If you say Akuma can one-shot this Goku, you're wanking.

      This is rich coming from the one saying Goku will one shot Oni with instakameha.

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    • Ryukama wrote:
      Cell Saga Goku was willing to risk his son and everyone on the planet getting killed restoring Cell's health for the sake of a "fair match." He's not nearly as bloodlusted or efficient as you guys are saying he is. His whole point is that he longs for a good fight.

      And yes Akuma can theoretically one shot Goku with soul based attacks, as Goku has no resistance towards them.

      yeah, but guess what. Unless you include Gohan as a potential fight candidate with SSJ2 Powers in this fight. Goku won't be so carefree. I've seen a person debunk the soul based attacks in this thread, so no he cannot.

      Edit: BTW where does Goku even get his High 4-C rating from?

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    • I've seen a person debunk the soul based attacks in this thread, so no he cannot.

      And that comment would be...

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    • This is rich coming from the one saying Goku will one shot Oni with instakameha.

      Due to the fact that he would've killed Cell if he didn't have his regeneration, Akuma doesn't have regeneration so yeah he gets one-shotted. Then again I still don't see where Goku's High 4-C rating comes from.

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote:

      I've seen a person debunk the soul based attacks in this thread, so no he cannot.

      Think it was a comment of Miles Romero12

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    • Goku was also carefree with letting Frieza power up to his max. Goku in general just values having a good fight over much else.

      And also how is a High 4-C attack going to destroy an At least High 4-C, possibly higher? Goku would have to spam this attack, which considering he's literally only used it twice in the series, is very unlikely.

      The only debunk of the soul attacks was an example of someone resisting it. That doesn't mean Goku can resist it. So can anyone who's 3-A resist Hit's Time Stop just because Goku did? Can anyone resist mental attacks because Ryuko has? Can anyone resist telekinetic attacks because Saitama has?

      Characters need an established resistance to hax in order to be assumed capable of negating it. Which Goku does not. The fact that an entirely different character has resisted the attack is irrelevant.

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    • FTW395 wrote:

      Think it was a comment of Miles Romero12

      I already presented the possibilities to Miles, I suggest you read them.

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    • So are you giving your vote to Goku, FTW?

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    • And again, soul based attacks aren't Akuma's only conceivable advantages. He also has centuries of combat experience over Goku and much higher stamina.

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    • Still Goku survived the devilmite beam and vegeta was shown to resists babidi's mental attacks. Akuma's rating comes from a low-end High 4-C rating (only 0.9 foe). So it's entirely possible that Goku can one-shot Akuma. Then again as I've said before. I don't know where Goku's high 4-C rating comes from, so I really cannot elaborate on this argument. 

      I agree that Goku values a good fight over anything else, but I don't see how him getting one-shotted would result into a good fight. Goku won't let himself get one-shotted that's out of character.

      Edit: @PTSOXMONKEY99 completely depends on where Goku's High 4-C rating comes from.

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    • Devilmite Beam is converting negative thoughts into destructive energy. Not necessarily attacking the soul. Mind Resistance and Soul Resistance are completely different things.

      Also by the logic you're saying about Akuma getting "debunked," Vegeta resisting Babidi's attack means anyone can resist it.

      Akuma is a high degree above that value and Goku is an unknown amount of High 4-C. An argument shouldn't be made on who's stronger as we don't know exactly how powerful in their tier they are.

      It's not that Goku would let himself get one shot, it's that he has no idea how the soul attacks work and will get hit by them before he beats Akuma down. And especially before he thinks to spam an attack he only used twice in the entire series.

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    • FTW395 wrote:
      Still Goku survived the devilmite beam

      The beam is a very specific spirit based attack, just like the Raging Demon. Just because you survive one doesn't mean you'll survive the other. They are attacks based on conditions. Anyone that doesn't clear those conditions, isn't affected.

      FTW395 wrote:
      vegeta was shown to resists babidi's mental attacks.

      Vegeta is irrelevant here.

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    • @Scarlet

      Yet you discarted ALL of my responses about those possibilities.

      You are the one who came up with ASURA'S OWN VERSION OF THE RAGING DEMON.

      This is reaching and getting things out of nowhere.

      Asura punched thru Oni's raging demon and that is backed up by the game itself.

      I ask again, why not Goku? Asura has no soul protection on the main game at all.

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    • Also here's Roshi's explanation on the Devilmite Beam.

      It amplified any dark thought (anger, malice, aggression) and caused it to expand until his opponent's heart, literally exploded

      Ryu is right, it converts malice into physical damage, so not exactly a soul attack.

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:
      @Scarlet

      You are the one who came up with ASURA'S OWN VERSION OF THE RAGING DEMON.

      This is reaching and getting things out of nowhere.

      This is reaching? I already gave you two reasons why this is a legit argument. Go and read them.

      Asura has no soul protection on the main game at all.

      And Oni isn't Large Star in the main game either, what's your point?

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    • I just looked up the raging demon and realized it was a physical attack instead of a beam or whatever it could be. What makes you think that Goku would just let Akuma beat him up, instead of blocking or dodging it? Btw is it in-character for Akuma to spam his raging demon at the start of the fight? 

      This could go either way, Goku could use solar flare and destructo disk or his instant kamehameha, while Akume could use his Raging demon.

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    • Are you kidding me right now?

      Literaly no one of you has explained or responded to me on how Asura blocked punched thru onis raging demon.

      You IGNORE any possibility or response that doesnt favour Oni.

      This is not a debate, this is a kangaroo court.

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    • FTW395 wrote:
      Btw is it in-character for Akuma to spam his raging demon at the start of the fight? 

      He has done it before. See Evil Ryu vs Akuma. Right of the bat, he goes for the Raging Demon. 

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:
      Are you kidding me right now?

      Literaly no one of you has explained or responded to me on how Asura blocked punched thru onis raging demon.

      You IGNORE any possibility or response that doesnt favour Oni.

      This is not a debate, this is a kangaroo court.

      First, I suggest you take it down a notch.

      No one is ignoring anything. This is the third time I'm mentioning why Asura got out of the Raging Demon.

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    • @FTW Like Scarlet said Akuma spams the attack and with speed equal is likely to be able to hit him at least once.

      @Miles We have many times. Asura resisting the attack doesn't mean everyone in fiction can. That just means Asura has soul resistance. Ryuko punched herself in the face to resist mind attacks. Does that mean everyone can now negate those mind attacks if they punch themselves?

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote:
      He has done it before. See Evil Ryu vs Akuma. Right of the bat, he goes for the Raging Demon. 

      I googled it a bit so I'm not 100% sure if I got the right thing, but the only evil ryu vs akuma I found was in a video game vs an AI controlled character who used the raging demon at the start of the fight.

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    • FTW395 wrote:

      I googled it a bit so I'm not 100% sure if I got the right thing, but the only evil ryu vs akuma I found was in a video game vs an AI controlled character who used the raging demon at the start of the fight.

      That's the one.

      Ryukama wrote: @Miles We have many times. Asura resisting the attack doesn't mean everyone in fiction can. That just means Asura has soul resistance. Ryuko punched herself in the face to resist mind attacks. Does that mean everyone can now negate those mind attacks if they punch themselves?

      Thank you

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    • So let me get this straight, you use game mechanics to define Akuma's personality. Yet no in-game character gets one-shotted by Akuma's raging demon, it only damages the characters a bit.

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    • Ryukama wrote: @FTW Like Scarlet said Akuma spams the attack and with speed equal is likely to be able to hit him at least once.

      @Miles We have many times. Asura resisting the attack doesn't mean everyone in fiction can. That just means Asura has soul resistance. Ryuko punched herself in the face to resist mind attacks. Does that mean everyone can now negate those mind attacks if they punch themselves?

      this is EXACTLY what i am saying.

      You literally assume that he has soul resistance instead of considering the possibility that it is at least possible to reduce the damage of the raging demon by countering/dodging blows.

      Not to mention you are ignoring again thr fact that the Raging Demon is a 13-33 hit COMBO, thus the "one hit kill" part is a mystery since two posibilities are present here. (This is confirmed again in SFV's raging demon)

      Does it take one single hit to kill your soul.

      Or the entiee combo must hit for your soul to die?

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    • These guys try to dismiss the fact that Oni did not start the fight by using the raging demon against Asura.

      Why would he against Goku, huh?

      Not to mention they still ignore the insta kamehameha and Spirit bomb being very effective attacks in this battle.

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    • FTW395 wrote:
      So let me get this straight, you use game mechanics to define Akuma's personality. Yet no in-game character gets one-shotted by Akuma's raging demon, it only damages the characters a bit.

      That's not game mechanics, that's a cutscene, get your facts straight. 

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    • "this is EXACTLY what i am saying." Okay I am done talking at this point then.

      Asura is an entirely separate character from Goku. You cannot assume that just because he has something everyone else can. Or else by your logic everyone in fiction has mind resistance, soul resistance, intangibility resistance, etc.

      Asura simply being able to resist a soul attack is far more reasonable than, Asura punched it out therefore everyone in fiction can now resist the attack. That's not how powers and resistances work here and it's not how we rate things here.

      Plus again it's not like Akuma can only rely on soul attacks. He has centuries more combat experience and much higher stamina.

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote:
      That's not game mechanics, that's a cutscene, get your facts straight. 

      Maybe if you linked me the facts instead of letting a person who knows nothing about SF search for it themselves we wouldn't have this problem. I said I just googled a bit so I wasn't 100% sure if I saw the right one, which I apparently didn't. The video I saw had no cutscene whatsoever.

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    • The Raging Demon (Instant Hell Murder) also the Wrath of the Raging Demon (quoted by Akuma "Isshun Sengeki"-> One thousand strikes in an instant) is a series of strikes all in one instant.

      Also, who in their right mind would let Goku charge up his Spirit Bomb?

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    • Ryukama wrote: Okay I am done talking at this point then.

      Asura is an entirely separate character from Goku. You cannot assume that just because he has something everyone else can. Or else by your logic everyone in fiction has mind resistance, soul resistance, intangibility resistance, etc.

      Asura simply being able to resist a soul attack is far more reasonable than, oh Asura punched it out therefore everyone in fiction can now resist the attack. That's not how powers and resistances work here and it's not how we rate things here.

      Plus again it's not like Akuma can only rely on soul attacks. He has centuries more combat experience and much higher stamina.

      Exactly.

      Why would Akuma go instantly for the Raging Demon against Goku? And you still have not proven that Asura has soul resistance if he ounched thru the attack twice.

      For me, it looks like you are going to have some trouble proving that.

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    • @Miles Romero12 could you link me the video where Asura dodges/blocks Akuma's raging demon?

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    • FTW395 wrote:
      @Miles Romero12 could you link me the video where Asura dodges/blocks Akuma's raging demon?

      Here

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote: The Raging Demon (Instant Hell Murder) also the Wrath of the Raging Demon (quoted by Akuma "Isshun Sengeki"-> One thousand strikes in an instant) is a series of strikes all in one instant.

      Also, who in their right mind would let Goku charge up his Spirit Bomb?

      I object.

      That description of the attack is incorrect while compared to the game's interpretation of said attack.

      Not only this would make Asura's reaction speed instant, it contradicts all the street fighter games it has appeared in, when it is shown to be a 13-33 hit combo.

      This contradicts SFV the most where it is SHOWN how the Raging Demon is like without the black screen.


      And this just proves that you didnt read the entiee thread, we argumented that Goku can charge the spirit bomb as much as he wsnts by teleporting somewhere else and throwing it at Akuma from a distace.

      And argumented that Oni would be confused enough to leave the planet. Even if he did, goku can track him down with ki sensing and IT and launch kamehamehas from every possible angle and teleport back.

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:

      Exactly.

      Why would Akuma go instantly for the Raging Demon against Goku? And you still have not proven that Asura has soul resistance if he ounched thru the attack twice.

      For me, it looks like you are going to have some trouble proving that.

      Physically surviving and negating an attack to the soul is a feat of soul resistance. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

      Does Goku no longer have Time Resistance, as he only used his ki to negate Hit's attack?

      So if an attack is explicitly meant to damage the soul of someone upon contact, and someone who was hit by it did not have their soul damaged, that is not proof of that person having soul resistance?

      Akuma has gone for Raging Demon at the beginning before. And saying he'd use it are much more reasonable assumptions than saying anyone in fiction can survive a soul attack or that Goku will spam an attack he only ever used twice.

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    • Miles Romero12 wrote:

      And this just proves that you didnt read the entiee thread, we argumented that Goku can charge the spirit bomb as much as he wsnts by teleporting somewhere else and throwing it at Akuma from a distace.

      I'm not even gonna entertain this idea. This is REALLY out of Goku's character. Also apparently Goku can now leave the battlefield, but when Oni knocks him in space, that's now allowed?

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote:

      To me Asura didn't block all of those attacks, seeing how he was worn out after the struggle. Besides this looks like a standard game clash, where you could also lose and thus get killed by the Raging Demon. Meaning Asura doesn't have soul attack resistance. Point A: even tho he won he still got worn out from the clash, Point B: you can lose the clash and thus get killed by Raging Demon, if he had soul resistance neither of these would be possible.

      Edit: Point C, if he had soul resistance he wouldn't need to block the attacks.

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    • Resistance =/= Immunity. You don't have to entirely tank a soul attack to be able to resist one. Even if we're assuming Asura doesn't have immunity, he at least has a resistance to soul attacks. Goku does not.

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    • ^Except for the story to actually continue as it's supposed to, you have to input the buttons. And resistance doesn't mean immunity.

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    • ScarletFirefly wrote:

      Miles Romero12 wrote:

      And this just proves that you didnt read the entiee thread, we argumented that Goku can charge the spirit bomb as much as he wsnts by teleporting somewhere else and throwing it at Akuma from a distace.

      I'm not even gonna entertain this idea. This is REALLY out of Goku's character. Also apparently Goku can now leave the battlefield, but when Oni knocks him in space, that's now allowed?

      The OP said NO BFR. That doesnt mean Goku can't leave the battlefield, we already had that checked out at rhe beggoning of the thread.

      And let me guess, what isnt against Goku's character? Losing?

      You still claim oni is Soullesss and will not do anything but kill the opponent at the first chance he gets! That contradicts the Asura fight as proven earlier!

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    • Ryukama wrote:
      Resistance =/= Immunity. You don't have to entirely tank a soul attack to be able to resist one. Even if we're assuming Asura doesn't have immunity, he at least has a resistance to soul attacks. Goku does not.

      Then you're assuming he has resistance, nothing shows he has specific resistance to this attack. It just shows people like Asura can parry/block it. It isn't even notified on Asura's profile that he has soul resistance. Otherwise you could argue that no other verse has "Dragonball ki resistance" and thus they all one-shot the other verses. Asura still gets damaged from the Raging Demon, but he's strong enough to not get killed by it. 

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    • </div> Physically surviving and negating an attack to the soul is a feat of soul resistance. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

      Does Goku no longer have Time Resistance, as he only used his ki to negate Hit's attack?

      So if an attack is explicitly meant to damage the soul of someone upon contact, and someone who was hit by it did not have their soul damaged, that is not proof of that person having soul resistance?

      Akuma has gone for Raging Demon at the beginning before. And saying he'd use it are much more reasonable assumptions than saying anyone in fiction can survive a soul attack or that Goku will spam an attack he only ever used twice. </div>

      I object to this as well.

      We have no proof that this is the case since Asura has no soul resistance feats in the main game and this only proves that you can avoid getting your soul crushed by countering/dodging blows from the rsging demon COMBO.

      Goku has time resistance by being inmune to a time stop, Goku destroyed a separate time space with Hit, but that has nothing to do woth this.


      You forget, my friend. This isnt Canon akuma. This entire backstory is good as unknown at this point, and you really cant prove