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Kirito vs Guts

  • SomebodyData
    SomebodyData closed this thread because:
    Don't necro dead threads
    22:51, January 30, 2017

    After Guts' downgrades, I think we can save ourselves of any chances of a stomp for either party.

    Rules

    Guts (Black Swordsman, access to Berserker Armor)

    Kirito (SAO,Aincrad)

    Round One

    50 meters starting distance.

    Round Two

    Speed Equalized, 10 meters starting distance.

    Tally

    Kirito = 1

    Guts = 6

    Inconclusive (unable to win both rounds) = 3

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    • Tuff, Kirito seems to be more versatility but Guts is way more experienced.

      I wanna see more input before I vote.

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    • Round one Guts probably takes it via higher speed. For round 2, probably Kirito via regen, and the fact that as a game avatar he shouldn't have a soul.

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    • Blahblah9755 wrote:
      and the fact that as a game avatar he shouldn't have a soul.

      Just for clarification, are game avatars confirmed to not have souls? Because if that's not the case, then said game avatars have to display feats of withstanding/no selling soul damage in order to show their resistance towards such techniques. We go through this for settings that don't have any explicit mentions of souls being present within them.

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    • They haven't been confirmed to not have souls as far as I know, but they aren't actually humans, just data in a game being controlled by humans. Wouldn't this be similar to how robots and other non-living-beings are generally assumed to not have souls?

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    • Blahblah9755 wrote:
      Wouldn't this be similar to how robots and other non-living-beings are generally assumed to not have souls?

      You definately have a point about that.

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    • Well isn't SAO fully linked to the player, so whatever happens to Kirito in the game should happen to him in real life. I think the soul damage can affect him, since Kiritos consciousness is within the game. At least this is my opinion.

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    • Nah, he can feel the sensation of pain in game but it doesn't affect his real body.

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    • Guts.

      Kirito has versatility but he never puts it to use in any tactical manner and Guts has dealt with everything Kirito has. A foght between feroscious sword fighters like them would be a short affair and in the end Guts has vastly, incomparably higher dueling skills and swordsmanship

      Guts gets my vote

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    • Also Kiritos regen is so damn slow it wont even play a factor

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    • Round one: goes to Guts due to speed

      Round Two: Goes to Kirito due to regen

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    • Round 1: Guts via speedblitz

      Round 2: Kirito's regen is proven to only be viable against opponents with lower attack potency than himself, for example in his fight against Gleam Eyes, he came close to dying because his regen does not restore more hp than GE can deliver. Guts would be a similar case. Furthermore, Guts is more experienced than Kirito and has dealt with pretty much everything in Kirito's arsenal.

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    • People voting Kirito due to regen shouldn't have their votes counted IMO

      Kirito's regen against those on his level is so slow it's not even funny.

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    • @rad I guess you have a point, so unless stated otherwise, Kirito can't be affected by soul damage, doesn't really matter, the outcome for me is still guts for both rounds

      For round 1 it's speed and his other stats.

      For round 2 however, I'm giving this s To guts still, because bot only is he way more skilled than Kirito, but i argue his versatility is higher.

      Why, because guts is very resourceful with his fear and has been shown to use a of speed and agility with his combat style, not to mention he uses his arrows and cannon in ways that boost his combat strength or speed(like using his cannon to propel himself to swing faster while damaging the opener at the same time) his quick thinking when the odds aren't going his favor is astounding, while when I see Kiritos, he doesn't look as versatile compared to guts

      On top of his indomitable will power and berserk like thinking to keep fighting to the bitter end.

      That is why I'm giving guts the win for both rounds via better overall skill,versatility, and combat intellect.

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    • Guts both rounds. Speed in round 1, and versality, experience and skill in round 2.

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    • Kirito's regen isn't useless, yes his hp regen isn't fast against opponents on his level, but his physical regen is, in SAO characters can be sliced through their torso, or have their limbs removed, and unless their hp hits zero their body stays together, on the other hand if you cut a part of Guts' body off it doesn't come back.

      Also Kirito does fight tactically, he's frequently involved in developing strategies for Raid bosses, and in his battle against the salamander leader he used a smokescreen to distract him so ha could take Leafa's sword, and then used the Sun to blind his opponent.

      And although Guts has him beat in versatility and experience (the gap isn't huge though), I wouldn't be sure about fighting skill. Kirito was able to match a nationally ranked kendo practitioner, despite being physically weaker and slower than her, and he was able to hold back an entire raid party of players very close to him in stats in a 2v49 situation. He's also developed his own style of swordsmanship, and plenty of unique skills outside of the regular systems of SAO. And he's maxed out his in game one-handed swordsmanship, duel blades, and martial arts skills, so there's that as well.

      Also, for the argument of speed and agility, the whole purpose of Kirito's fighting style is to use his agility to dodge and parry fast opponents, he even does flips to dodge bullets and cuts spells in half. And if Guts using his canon to propel his attacks isn't affected by speed being equalized, Kirito can double his slash speed and rhythm with at least one of his sword skills, and all of them increase it to an extent.

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    • His limb regen takes minutes, which is longer than this fight would last.

      It's just game mechanics. Leafs was caught off guard by unorthodox skills but soon adapted, and Kirito got his ass handed to him via crack on the head. And since when was Leafa physically superior to him? He'd recovered by then in terms of strength average male > average female.

      Takin on Armies of Soldiers or Demons >>>>> Taking on Armies of Nerds. Kirito never developed a new fighting style he's just trying to make do with some kendo training being meshed in with his sword skills which isn't a proper fighting style since it lacks many elements of actual fighting styles. His fighting skills consist of flamboyant strikes and slashes that are both easily avoidable by anyone with reasonable fighting skill and easily countered since Kirito defensive fighting skills are, for a lack of a better word, shit.

      Kirito isn't Yoda. Flips leave him ridiculously open to counterattack and unlike the green badass he doesn't flawlessly block everything. And all speeds are equalized so that's a moot point.

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    • He's a game character in a novel, those game mechanics are canon to him.

      And he didn't have "his ass handed to him" he took one blow to the head after a while of fighting, which is how kendo matches end. Suguha is one of the best kendo practitioners of her age in the country, she's an athletic human, and Kirito still wasn't back to average strength, they even noted how he had been slacking in his physical therapy, and he brought up how his movements were sluggish when he fought her.

      Taking on an army of people comparable to you in strength and speed>>>taking on armies of fodder. And these "nerds" all have relatively high (compared to the average person) combat skill from over a year of fighting in VR boosted by the system assist.

      His fighting style doesn't really resemble even the basics of kendo, so no, it's not just bits of kendo mashed together with sword skills. His fighting style focuses on parrying and dodging by predicting his opponents attacks through body language, the flamboyant slashes are just when gets emotional.

      He doesn't flip in close range, I just brought that up to demonstrate that he's agile, and the speed thing was just because someone else mentioned Guts using his canon to boost his speed, those two were meant to be moot points to explain why something else was also a moot point.

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    • Could you provide a scan for the 2 vs 49 stuff? I can't really find it anywhere.

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    • Austrian-Man-Meat wrote:
      Could you provide a scan for the 2 vs 49 stuff? I can't really find it anywhere.

      The only thing I can remember that's similar to that is from Mother's Rosario arc. Kirito and Klein hold off an entire guild from raiding a floor boss for about 3 minutes I think. Though I forgot whether they managed to beat them all or not.

      Either that or some scene from Alicization arc that I haven't read (stopped reading 3 volumes in after Alicization), since Alicization has this "time runs faster than the outside world" thing like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, then it's possible that a lot of time has gone through and lots of things happened. Especially in current arc it seems since it's apparently a war arc.

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    • Austrian-Man-Meat wrote:
      Could you provide a scan for the 2 vs 49 stuff? I can't really find it anywhere.

      (Vol.7 Chapter 6)

      - - -

      Of course, this wasn’t a victory sign to change the situation, but

      one with the meaning ‘I’ll help you stall them for 3 minutes’. Of course,

      he didn’t think that he could beat 30 enemies alone.

      ...

      It’s been a few minutes since the battle started, and the sounds

      from behind started to become more and more intense. This should be

      the result of Kirito and Klein charging into the enemy’s group to

      prevent magic attacks. However, they didn’t have any healers, and

      couldn’t heal all sorts of unexpected damage. Kirito said that he could

      hang on for 3 minutes, but it would be best if they could break through

      the enemy within 2 minutes to repay their sacrifice. It would be best to

      end this battle quick.

      ...

      The total time taken was 2 minutes and 8 seconds.

      ...

      Looking back, she immediately saw that Kirito and Klein were

      still fighting intently against the reinforcements. The enemy had

      already lost a lot of members, but the duo’s HP bars were near the red

      region as shown by the cursor colors.

      ...

      The black-clothed swordsman whose HP bar became bright red

      raised his right hand. He then pointed two fingers, this time really showing the V-sign to Asuna.

      - - -

      Cut out the scenes of Asuna and the Sleeping Knights to save space. It's pretty much this.

      30 clearer-level fighters, armed and ready for a boss fight filled with mages and healers

      vs

      Kirito with Excalibur at the front, stopping anyone from coming near the door, Yui pointing out enemies and Klein holding them at the rear.

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    • Huh, then I suppose all the stuff regarding Kirito/Klein not holding them off is just misconception. Or am I mistaken?

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    • They held the 30-man group off, though they seem to have died in the process. Though, those are 30 clearer-tier fighters full of mages, tank and healers, and they still suffered heavy casualties.

      Also, they held up for more than 2 minutes.

      Yeah, they did it.

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    • That is undoubtedly impressive, but as to whether or not it surpasses Guts' feat of defeating Mozgus' six disciples simultaneously (and annihilating eleven apostles without much difficulty through the use of the Berserker Armor) is quite subjective.

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    • I don't know how strong disciples and apostles are, but I assume Kirito was facing attacks from both melee on multiple sides and spells from above.

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    • Well technically Kirito had restarted his stats and had been training since then so...

      + Excaliber

      - Enemies have higher stats

      - Enemies have tactical advantage

      - Enemies have abilities advantage

      - Enemies have healing advantage

      - Enemies have number advantage

      How much stronger were the disciples than Guts?

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    • I don't think the enemies would have higher stats, even though he restarted his. He was still able to fight on the same level as Asuna and the others who got their avatars from SAO, and he managed to put up a good fight against Yuuki.

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    • @NEH technically that would be more of a skill feat than a stat one, especially since Asuna generally doesn't fight (She's a generally a healer, of course, she still fights just not as much). Idk much about the Yuuki fight.

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    • Kirito's pretty much up to par with Asuna and the rest, higher even.

      Still, he's not up to his former Black Swordsman level.

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    • Gemmysaur wrote:
      I don't know how strong disciples and apostles are, but I assume Kirito was facing attacks from both melee on multiple sides and spells from above.

      The problem with that we don't really know if Kirito dealt with such a barrage of attacks (unless explicitly stated.) Then again I don't really know how the magic really works on SAO.

      Apostles are always assumed to be on Guts' level (and in Zodd's and Grunbelds case, even higher). both ap and speed wise unless they're shown to be super weak and taken out by less imposing characters. Disciples on the other hand are a unique case, even though they're "quasi-apostles" each one has been able to competantly fight against Guts. And therefore should have compareable statistics. The impressive thing about Guts taking on the eleven apostles, is that he basically went on a killing spree and was killing them so efficently barely any of them was even able to properly react to him.

      Hope I cleared things up.

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    • I see. Way I see it, it's pretty much Kirito vs the clearers, but the clearers are fewer in numbers but are stronger.

      Anyways, it's implied Kirito was fighting them off by engaging in melee and swatting aside any spells coming his way. He finds his way around and finds who or what to cut via Yui acting as a radar for him.

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    • SomebodyData wrote:

      How much stronger were the disciples than Guts?

      I would not say that the disciples are stronger than Guts per se, just that they are compareable to him. Here is an example of Guts clashing against one of them

      And btw, Guts AP (due to ke) would be 4.6 tons of tnt. So about two times above the starting point of Large Building (where I assume Kirito is placed.)

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    • Well Kirito is rated as High 8-C for being extremely superior to his 56th-floor self who defeated Geocrawler that is High 8-C through sheer size (Was as long as rows of houses yet the height of a house).

      Considering how he was able to take on Gleam Eyes (who is leagues above that of GeoCrawler) by himself is it is pretty like he is far higher than the starting part of High 8-C

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    • Interesting, if we can have characters that are High 8-C through sheer size. I wonder where Wyald would be (especially considering his human form could perform 9-A feats)

      Anyways without an exact number (like in joules/energy) aside from mentions of its size, I'm not sure how one would go about on where to place it on the High 8-C scale. And because of this I thought placing him on the lowest one would be the best estimation.

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    • Probably Room level if he drops flat on top of Guts.

      Here's another monster who is rated for its sheer size (being massive enough to cause eclipses and can swallow moons).

      Anyways...

      Placing the giant boss mob from a while back on the lowest of High 8-C is fine. Problem is Kirito is soooooooooooo far above that  at the end of SAO that he soloed a boss and dealt 2/3 of its health, while the remaining 1/3 was Klein and Asuna hitting it a few times, and a small battalion of clearers numbering I think 10 or so.

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    • Gemmysaur wrote:

      Problem is Kirito is soooooooooooo far above that  at the end of SAO that he soloed a boss and dealt 2/3 of its health, while the remaining 1/3 was Klein and Asuna hitting it a few times, and a small battalion of clearers numbering I think 10 or so.

      Yeah I have a similar problem with Berserker Guts too, in that form he is clearly shown to be far above whatever he was capable of doing. Yet I cannot really place it higher due to no numerical value being given on how much stronger he becomes.

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    • Yeah, well stuff happens, and not much else.

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    • Round 1: Guts wins thanks to his speed.

      Round 2: This one's harder to decide, but on i'm leaning towards Guts via superior skill.

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    • Got some rather interesting scans I'd like to bring in regarding Berserker Armor Guts, he's still able to fight decently when dealing with conditions similar to that of being on the ocean floor.

      Make of that as you will.

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    • Isn't Guts capable of slicing souls with his Dragonslayer or am I missing something?

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Isn't Guts capable of slicing souls with his Dragonslayer or am I missing something?

      He can, but he has to overcome his opponents physical durability to attack their astral body. This type of damage is permenant and as a result negates regeneration abilities (unless the opponent can reattach limbs back onto their body.) Lastly, it allows Guts to combat intangible beings.

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    • Would souls even come into the equation seeing as how Kirito is a technological enemy and doesn't realyl have a soul (since he's not realyl real)? Or are we combining Kazuto's actual form into Kirito and changing the canon up a bit? 

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    • I think we interpret them as both being living beings in a neutral universe.

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    • Gemmysaur wrote:
      I think we interpret them as both being living beings in a neutral universe.

      Alright, makes sense. Just saw this and was curious. 


      In the end I'd hand it to Kirito (since I'm here now anyways). Gut's strength has allowed him to lift the mast of a large ship (which probably weighed between 50,000-75,000 lbs), meaning he's got just about 300-500x the typical human strength. Kirito's strength allowed him to chop through a tree that would generally take 900 years in 5 days. Cutting it in half due to the help he received (from a lesser powered person but we're going to cover all the bases) and assuming only one person was chopping in those 900 years (which it wasn't, there was a large team, but again, we'll lowball it), Kirito still chopped over 32,000x faster than a "typical" man. 


      That coupled with Kirito's misc abilities and the Excalibur's stated skill to break through steel (meaning it could break through the Berserker armor and potentially kill Guts as long as it was lethal instantly and not compounded hits), I'd hand it to Kirito. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      The numbers you just listed are ridiculously lowballing Guts and Kirito.

      Just to be at the bare minimum of Large Building level they'd have to be 41,940,000 times stronger than peak human. Your argument has already fallen fallen apart.

      In addition, Gut's can fight on despite having taken sword wounds to the chest, so no Excalibur breaking through steel doesn't change anything.

      Guts has higher stamina, more experience and his ability to slice the soul should have an effect on Kirito. Hell, just his far superior stamina should give him the win.

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    • LordKill90908 wrote:
      Mr. Bambu wrote:
      The numbers you just listed are ridiculously lowballing Guts and Kirito.

      Just to be at the bare minimum of Large Building level they'd have to be 41,940,000 times stronger than peak human. Your argument has already fallen fallen apart.

      In addition, Gut's can fight on despite having taken sword wounds to the chest, so no Excalibur breaking through steel doesn't change anything.

      Guts has higher stamina, more experience and his ability to slice the soul should have an effect on Kirito. Hell, just his far superior stamina should give him the win.

      Not lowballing. Stating feats from the series. 


      Yes, Berserker Armor keeps him from dying from compounded non-lethal wounds. If he was, say, decapitated... that's a different story. 


      I won't argue because I'm not in the mood. I'd give it to Kirito. 

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    • Welcome to the Wikia @Mr. Bambu

      For your first claim, LordKill speaks for me on that "Just to be at the bare minimum of Large Building level they'd have to be 41,940,000 times stronger than peak human."

      Your second claim is also faulty, since you're assuming Guts and his Dragon Slayer have the durability of steel. My response to this is no, it's not steel durability at all. It's Large Building level durability as the profile suggests, knowing Guts (pre Eclipse) can withstand blows from this dude is also a clear indicator that you're gonna need more than a steel cutting weapon to kill this man.

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    • Thanks for the cheery welcome, I guess.


      Show me a feat for them being that. I researched them both a long while back and that's what I found. I'm interested.


      Perhaps I could have worded that better. Excalibur, the sword designed by the gods, was said to be able to in the Manga cut through steel and trees- it was a metaphor for its innate ability to cut through oganic material and minerals. 

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    • Excalibur doesn't have any special ability like that, last time i checked. It's only said that it can cut through steel and trees because it's the sharpest thing in ALO. That's all.

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    • You could be right, although I'd argue that it was open to interpretation as the wording was... we'll call it shifty.


      I'm still interested in the feats for these characters being over 40,000,000 stronger than the average man. I love both of these guys and I'd hate to misjudge them. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Show me a feat for them being that. I researched them both a long while back and that's what I found. I'm interested.

      Perhaps I could have worded that better. Excalibur, the sword designed by the gods, was said to be able to in the Manga cut through steel and trees- it was a metaphor for its innate ability to cut through oganic material and minerals. 

      Check the profiles, all is available there. And if you disagree feel free to create a content revision thread.

      "Innate ability to cut through oganic material and minerals." Going by this quote alone, I'm guessing that Excalibur's innate ability is to be able to cut through any organic substance without fail? And by the way, cutting through steel (don't even know how much of it) and trees is still not going put down someone whose resisted the punches of apostles who can smash apart boulders; can withstand multiple direct shots of lightning. But I don't really need to repeat this since they're both Large Building and cutting through steel and trees is usually wall level feats.

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    • The Tree referred to is The World Tree, which is no normal tree. I wouldn't trust myself to explain it but... I suggest you look into it. 

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    • @AMM As i said in my previous post, Excalibur doesn't have any power like that, it's just really sharp.

      @Mr. Bambu Excalibur never cut through the World Tree. It did cut off a few of it's roots, but only when thrown at them by someone MUCH stronger than Kirito. Kirito himsef would be completely unable to replicate that.

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    • Who? (as in who threw it that was much stronger than Kirito, seeing as how he's probably the most powerful player entity).

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    • Thrym threw it. As in, a Dungeon Boss that came very close to decimating Kirito's entire party without major difficulties.

      Also, Yuuki is a player and she's stronger than Kirito.

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    • NotEvenHuman wrote:
      Thrym threw it. As in, a Dungeon Boss that came very close to decimating Kirito's entire party without major difficulties.

      Also, Yuuki is a player and she's stronger than Kirito.

      Interesting, that does explain a lot, but the sword no doubt is still extremely powerful in the hands of Kirito, who before all the other story arcs cut through that dragon's arm in a single swipe. Perhaps not as effective, but I'd say it could potentially kill Guts in his Berserker armor with a good hit as... Guts armor keeps him alive by piercing him together, if I recall. It can't heal the brain, or a destroyed heart. 


      Really? I'd accept that, as they were both leagues ahead of most players, so... alright. 

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    • NotEvenHuman wrote:

      Also, Yuuki is a player and she's stronger than Kirito.

      *faster

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    • When i said stronger, i was talking about overall combat ability, not just raw physical strenght. Though i wouldn't be surprised at all if Yuuki was also physically stronger than Kirito.

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    • Overall combat ability? That depends. Yuuki is faster and is a natural at swordsmanship.

      Meanwhile Kirito is slower, but has skill in being a team player for his time in SAO boss raids, decision-making skills for his time leading his little party in ALO, has creativity and out of the box thinking that allowed him to create the OuSS, Skill Connect, Arms Blast, Spell Blast and Distinguish, has technical knowhow to push an AI to its limits and use its own movements against it, shown with the OuSS, Mislead and high multitasking ability, shown when he was able to cite his Armament Full Control Art spell mid battle.

      TL;DR

      Yuuki = better swordsman

      Kirito = better fighter

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    • Hm, i guess you're right.

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    • I vote Guts both rounds. Round 1 for being simply much faster and round 2 for the higher AP, higher experience, and absurdly higher stamina.

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    • With my vote it's seven now....

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