@Radical: That can make sense. Sufficiently enraged FTL+ Hulk (capable of keeping up with Thor and Silver Surfer)? Also i recall seeing a scan of Hulk tagging Quicksilver one time which iirc we have him as high as FTL+ here too like Thor having his FTL+ scale.
Not sure if that last part helps to this, tho. Just randomly throwing it out here.
Hmm. Now that i think about it, wouldn't this also apply to characters like Odin and Zeus of Marvel to have this as well? I know that Zeus curbstomped Hulk. That's a fact. Not sure if he did anything speed-wise there when that happened.
Well if the Marvel handbooks are saying hulk and thor are MHS then cant we take the FTL feats of Thor as outliners. There are plenty of occasions when thor has been speed-blitzed by street level characters. Also unlike DC Marvel makes a clear distinction between combat speed and travel speed.
Well if the Marvel handbooks are saying hulk and thor are MHS then cant we take the FTL feats of Thor as outliners. There are plenty of occasions when thor has been speed-blitzed by street level characters. Also unlike DC Marvel makes a clear distinction between combat speed and travel speed. It's up to the staff and antvasima to decide on this one but I support the FTL proposition, and I hope my comment can help to further elevate it.
But it's not like their FTL feats are inconsistent, hulk has been able to rest or attack Thor,silver surfer, Hyperion, sentry and other incredibly fast beings. Take for example in the world war hulk issue #4 I believe he was able to punch sentry while sentry was going super fast flying towards him. You also have to remember that in the comics Thor has explained and stated he alswys holds back on earth and mortals. This has been repeated multiple times. Same with the hulk, hulk has always held back on almost literally everyone, one issue even had Amadeus cho state that hulk mathematically in his head controls where his attacks go and hit to make sure no civilian around him is hurt. When the hulk finally being dead serious on fighting the FF he broke the things arms, the point is the comics give simple by reasonable reasons why sometimes lower level beings can fight them on occasions, theirs also the fact marvel likes to be inconsistent and PIS with its character fights.
Marvel characters are almost impossible to scale. They are generally displayed at far lower speed levels than we currently rate them at, yet we go by a few higher feats, that are likely outliers in the most cases.
The problem is that Thor is only rated at "Superhuman" speed in the handbooks, along with an awful lot of other characters. Even rating them as Massively Hypersonic by scaling from a very unusual feat from Spider-Man is debatable, but rating them all as FTL+ seems extremely outlandish.
I think it's better to scale Thor with character who can perform MFTL+ feats casually,Sentry,Odin,Mikaboshi,etc, where as other like Rhino,Green goblin and such should scale to Spidy as they haven't shown to be able to ever even get close to these levels of speed on their own.
Well, the problem is that Spider-Man is consistently shown as able to avoid most attacks from the Hulk during confrontations, who in turn is consistently shown as comparable in speed to Thor and the Sentry.
Marvel does not make any sense whatsoever, and I am constantly scratching my head wondering what we should do with the statistics, as they turn out badly, no matter which approach that we take.
I agree Ant however due to nature of the line "The madder Hulk gets the Hulk Stronger is" arthur's make the Hulk as strong as they want him to be and even then Spider Man already has Relativistic reaction speed.
I understand if wish to keep the speed as it though.
Although, officially, according to Tom Brevoort, Thor is currently considered as slower than Wolverine... despite that the handbook says that he is not.
Still, I suppose that it might be an idea to scale Beta Ray Bill, Hercules, Hulk, Sentry, Odin, and Zeus to Thor, and the Heralds of Galactus, and some Elders of the Universe to the Silver Surfer. Have I forgotten any?
Just remember, that officially these characters are not supposed to be very swift at all. Barely superhuman in fact.
I'd think we should scale cosmics, higher beings to Thor in FTL+ speed, including Odin, Sentry, BRB, Thanos, Bor, Chaos King, Hyperion, Surtur, Champ of the verse, Those who park their asses in the shadows, Galactus (though it won't be noticable since Galactus is huge)...
Scaling to Surfer's FTL maybe lower cosmics, Planet level and beyond threats and space-guys like: Gladiator (when sufficiently confident), Herc, Loki,Destroyer, Hulk (when sufficiently enraged), Nova, the other heralds, Mangog
Maybe we can have something like: Handbook scaling speed, Potentially maybe logical powerscaling speed
Anyways, yeah. That's my opinion of how to make sense with it. And I for one ignore Brevoort entirely since his answers are weird and often not answer the question entirely if at all, but that's just me.
Well, an alternative future version of Gladiator has a very MFTL+ speed feat, and our power-scaling from Thor and the Surfer should probably go by which characters that are able to consistently keep up with them, but I suppose that "Handbook Scaling speed" and "Power-scaling speed" might work.
As for Brevoort, I don't like him as a person anymore (see the history in my Tumblr blog to see why), but he is still the person who actually gets to decide which characters that are officially stronger or weaker in comparison to the rest, so we have no choice but to listen to him to a degree.
I don't like Brevoort one bit, but he's official so I just get the barest idea from him, but I take what he says with a sack of salt. There should've been other people before him that judge that stuff right?
Well, if we go by listening to him, then all Asgardians get MHS+/FTL+ scaling from Thor since when I asked him once about how fast Thor's reflexes are, he answered to me that "He's about as fast as an average Asgardian." Well, that or Thor scales down to an average Asgardian in speed.
On that note, are we really scaling them from Spidey's actual reflexes, or Spider sense reactions?
Anyways, shouldn't we have an Alter future Glad tab in his profile? Or is that version one with too many unknowns?
@All: Yeah this is why i never get into comic debating and scaling. I've had so many talks with Ant about this to know that no matter what we may come up with for this verse, it becomes a mess. Like equivalent to cleaning out a warehouse.....yeah.
Anyways i think we could get into a compromise of this by using Gemmy's idea. Logically speaking despite the massive inconsistency that is Marvel itself, it doesn't feel right to have someone like Odin (for example) be slower than his own son Thor if you look at their pages. Same with Zeus and Mikaboshi. So something that Gemmy proposed earlier sounds good enough in my opinion.
I think the big issue with speed here is that, unlike DC, Marvel's "poster boys" are street levellers. As such, whenever a street-level hero goes up against, say, Silver Surfer, they tend to have a speed advantage but much less strength. They gotta look good after all.
But on the other end of this, we know that cosmic characters should be FTL from their feats. Yet listing Captain America as FTL for dodging Thanos' attacks is really stupid, when it's more likely he was jobbing because he was fighting, well, Captain America.
Because of this I propose that we get feats from standalone comics and non-scaling feats. Now, if a character has 0 feats for themselves and all they have is "fought Silver Surfer", then yes we would scale them because that's all we have. But scaling should always be the very far below second priority. If you give it too much credence you get things like the aforementioned "Hulk = Thor = Silver Surfer < Spider-Man".
I propose that we get feats from standalone comics and non-scaling feats. Now, if a character has 0 feats for themselves and all they have is "fought Silver Surfer", then yes we would scale them because that's all we have.
Problem is, there are others who are too difficult to find a good speed feat for e.g. Black Bolt afaik so I suggested the whole <handbook scaling>, Potentially <logical powerscaling>.
We could always have those with usable feats replace <logical powerscaling> with <calced feat>, as is the case with Thor and Surfer at the moment.
CrossverseCrisis wrote: @LordXcano: So your saying that we should gets that are standalone and don't scale to others or...?
I'm saying scaling can be used but it'd be second-hand justification for a stat rather than a primary. A standalone feat doesn't have to scale to others, I'm just talking like "Character X ran Mach 5" rather than "Character X = Character Y who is Mach 5".
My apologies. I have edited out the off-topic part of my last post.
It alright, now back to the topic. I have a good hulk reaction speed feat of him punching sentry while he was flying at incredibly fast speeds. If I can get it calc'd could we scale that to the others? or only just him.
Okay. Well then again i can somewhat see how this would be a problem no matter what alternative we take of this.
Then again: Marvel's a pretty damn mess in terms of scaling. I've never seen this much inconsistency on anywhere else. It also pisses me off, in all honesty, to not have Odin be higher than Spidey's level.
@cross agreed, I didn't want to say anything since I know about the marvel issues we have with scaling, but seeing thanos be listed at the same speed as Spiderman made me a little frustrated. I'm glad radical did this thread Ife been wanting to talk about this for a while now. Just didn't think it go this smoothly.
Well i'm just speaking out in all honesty here. Me and Antvasima have discussed this many times before and we both know how stupid Marvel is in scaling their characters compared to other franchises like KH, DB, Bleach, PMMM, JJBA, HnK, Toriko, etc.
But it makes sense because we're dealing with a long running series of comics made by various writers. So it makese sense why scaling this verse accurately, if possible, would be a huge issue for all of us.
Well, if you are ralking about World War Hulk, then I do not believe that Sentry ever went FTL during his flight, so I doubt that it would be useful.
Yes it is WWH, however I wouldn't take it off the table the fact he was charging at full speed in his somewhat unstable form. Theirs also the fact he's capable of baiting characters like Thor,gladiator and Hyperion in the past. And this was a sentry who wanted too severely hurt the hulk by any means necessary. We can least say he was going SOl
I suppose that Hulk, Sentry, Gladiator, Hercules, Ares, Hyperion, Beta Ray Bill, Blue Marvel, Terrax, Drax, and Firelord could technically scale from Thor (just keep in mind that officially most of them are barely superhuman in terms of speed), but am very uncertain about the rest.
Namor has been able to go toe to toe with the hulk and iirc winning at least one of their fight,
the thing has fought with hulk plenty of times and landed good strikes, including with Thor.
Red she hulk has gone toe to toe with hulk at world breaker, thor has lost to red hulk, and has gone toe to toe with both hulk and Thor.
She hulk and Abomb is up to you, they have fought these characters before but debatable if they scale
Abomination same reasons as the thing, Mandog has beaten Thor, lean grey is an abstract being as the Phoenix so her using a little bit of the Phoenix force should be close to these guys dr strange has been able to react to high level beings,
dr doom has been able to react to three celestials firing a beam at him, so he should scale to these guys.
Vulcan is on similar levels with people like Hyperion and gladiator. So far that's my explanation for them
Quick question could wolverine somewhat scale? He has tagged and surpher Thor before, blitz grey hulk in berserker form, and I believe tag quicksilver in the past though the latter might be wrong. Or would he only be scaled to Spiderman
Well, as I mentioned, this is the problem with using power-scaling via every single matchup for Marvel. Since every single character is generally scaled down to a similar level of speed and power to the opponents during matchups, at the end we end up with a universe full of FTL+ statistics for everybody, even characters with supposedly human bodies, like Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange, and Jean Grey.
Well, as I mentioned, this is the problem with using power-scaling via every single matchup for Marvel. Since every single character is generally scaled down to a similar level of speed and power to the opponents during matchups, at the end we end up with a universe full of FTL+ statistics for everybody.
Oh I understand your concern, I just thought maybe wolverine would be a special case, but other than that any street level characters or mid characters like Luke cage should only scale to Spiderman. And the list I posted should be the ones who scale to Thor sicne they are all very high level characters in marvel.
As for characters like Doctor doom or strange they honestly should scale, like I said Doctor doom was able to react with three celestials firing a beam at him with his shields, and Doctor strange has been able to go on par and react with characters like umar and dormamamu in the past
I am still very uncertain how to properly solve this problem.
Hmmmm, well we could only scale the cosmic tiers like the ones you agreed on first, then make all the cosmic sky father level beings like Odin and Zeus etc scale to Thor for obvious reason then keep for now the others ratings op until we can properly evaluate who else can be at this level of speed.
Doom reacting to Celestials seems like the kind of nonsensical gibberish outliers that are Marvel's trademark, and Doctor Strange is still generally shown as inferior in speed to street level characters such as Wong.
Mind you, I still think that we are placing the Marvel character speeds ridiculously high, given that their general showings are subsonic at best, so I have highlighted this thread for more input.
Space dudes like BRB, Thanos, Champion of the Universe, Galactus, Super Skrull...
Myth dudes like Odin, Bor, Chaos King, Surtur, Those who lie on their behinds in the shadows, Cul, Loki and the Asgardians, Hercules, the other Skyfathers...
Earth dudes like Hyperion, Sentry, Ultron, Hulk (only when sufficiently fan-hitting turd level enraged, else, watered down to his MHS rating at mildly pissed), Blue Marvel, Abomination (probably since he's a threat to Hulk but is he really?)...
Scaling from Surfer's FTL (Why he doesn't simply scale to Thor eludes me since he should technically be faster by portrayal afaik)
Fellow heralds like Terrax, Firelord, Morg, Stardust...
Space dudes like Gladiator (sufficiently confident), Nova (guessing this only), Annihilus (probably after absorbing stuff like Hulk's strength and getting to par with Thanos)...
Myth dudes like empty Destroyer, Mangog (who's only threat is his strength and durability anyway)...
Earth dudes like Namor (he's a threat but I remember him being knocked silly by Thor on accident while raining), Black Bolt (guessing)...
Ares (though I don't remember him matching a herald level being in combat though he did nail Hermes' foot midrun; else, scale to Iron Man's sub-rel+ since he's the guy who most frequently get the sharp end of Ares' weapon or the guy who gives thoughts on him afaik; though he could also be FTL+ given his statement that he's faster but weaker than Herc) ...he's weird like that.
Anyways, tried again to make a list. The others not listed, I am unsure as I know extremely little of them, do not care about them or have not seen them at all.
I agree with what Gemmy put, tbh. I mean it MAY not be perfect and we're still likely to get complaints about this in any other way, but i like it better than to just get constant comments of "why Odin MHS when he has MFTL+ feats?" or whatever.
It's just that annoying, retarded, and downright ridiculous to deal with. Like either this or just straight up put them back to Unknown....
@Matthew: Isn't that what we've been sort of doing still tho?
And yeah, that's pretty much what Antvasima has told me so many times. When it comes to Marvel's scaling, it's just plain ridiculous. Like no way can we ever get through with this damn verse and all of it's scaling problems.
To be completely fair, Marvel does have an excuse to be inconsistent. It's been running for 70+ years. Anything with that much runtime is bound to have a ton of inconsistencies. Other than DC, which is almost as inconsistent, it's probably the longest running thing on here. I can't think of any anime, video game (for obvious reasons), cartoon, or book series otherwise.
Well, the issue is that they are not even attempting to be remotely consistent. The same writer can let a character have equal trouble with tiers 8-C and 3-B, just to use Jason Aaron's recent Thor run as an example.
Nothing is as inconsistent as Marvel. They're the dictionary definition of it.
Hulk will need serious speed to jump between planets, though not necessarily FTL.
Also, Spidey may generally be portrayed as having better reflexes, but the likes of Thor has high-end feats that laughs at Spidey's. Which is again, inconsistent. I remember the days when Thor was swinging the hammer twice lightspeed and throwing it far, far, far faster. I also remember the days when Sentry didn't exist.
@The real cal howard
It's excusable to an extent I guess, since Naruto has been running what? 15 years? And it's plagued with retcons and inconsistencies. Hell, Pokemon has numerous inconsistencies in 1 season. But, what sets Marvel apart from DC that makes it far, far more inconsistent is because they have no reboots. Only retcons.
Endless Mike makes good calcs for Marvel, honestly.
Like how Hawkeye is Supersonic+ or Thor being FTL....very consistent of Thor. He also has some MHS+ and/or Sub-Rela feats or higher too. But he's also consistently FTL going by EM's calc's. FTL+ is the highest we use for him tho but eh...