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  • KuuIchigo
    KuuIchigo closed this thread because:
    Concluded.
    08:29, August 31, 2016

    Two characters who used prep time to beat people out of their league. Both get a few days (3-4) of prep time and all speeds are equalized. They can't attack each other until they meet up. The standard battle area is in place. Both are devoted to the death of the other, but not bloodlusted. Who wins?

    Rick in jail
    Yukariport
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    • ...Personally I would support Yukari, for her craft is way better than him in the same field, and most likely just going to pull something even more absurd than him. Plus, a normal person like Rick can't escape from her eyes in the first place, and would have his information pry open. 

      Edit: Full explanation for anyone of interest ( and because I'm bored)

      Firstly, in term of ability: While Rick have inpressive amount of abilities and even capable of destroying universe, all of it come from his gadget. Which mean any alteration of it would mean it deactivation or even backfired, the skill in which Yukari is especially good at. Speaking of which, her ability to manipulate boundary basically mean she got the universal remote, in all of it sense, in the palm of her hand, and it's not something Rick could steal or seal away with. Her ability work extremely well against human ain't going to help him either.

      Secondly, in term of intelligent: Yukari's knowledge of the boundary basically mean she's already more insightful to the nature of the world (A.K.A science) than Rick ever achieve. Even if you count brain power (which I doubt he have one), she could calculate even the depth of the Sanzu river (a thing that's know to be unknown in width), capable of doing equation of thousand variable in seconds, and control a nine-tailed fox, which in myth would be already smarter than him. Not to mention she could ram it up further with her boundary manipulation.

      Thirdly, in term of ruthlessness: If Rick is a drunken sociopath, Yukari is the Great Demon Lord. She's always have many scheme that she couldn't remember which one, unlike Rick that thrive only through ad-lib and doing it on the go. Their attitude is like a child that's facing against a Youkai Sage, meaning that she would always have him in the palm of her hand.

      And not to mention her based stat is already more superior than him many time over...

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    • bump

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    • Rick wins since he just has crazy AP advantage.

      Also,

      1. Her boundary limitation is limited, it says she's only 6-A.

      2. Rick may be smarter than her, since; "He was able to create a miniature sentient robot just to pass butter and grant a dog highly advanced intelligence in only a few seconds. He was also able to tell when he was inside a simulation inside a simulation inside another simulation and still flawlessly trick the Zigerion scammers into blowing themselves up".

      3. Both are dedicated to annihilate each other, so, no.

      4. What do you mean by "her base stat is higher than him many times over"? His AP is MUCH higher than hers, possibly infinitely if he put his mind into it. He's lacking in the Durability department, but that's about it.

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    • ^Yeah, but that his gadget. His based physical stat isn't really that good , like tier 9 as best. Secondly, it's more like the extend she's showed is at least high 6-A, and we have no idea what's she capable of, since even canon source said her power logically could affect anything. 

      And yeah, both side are trying to annihilate each other, but Yukari would outwit him easily, since she's capable of tricking even the moon sage said to have live millions of years over, and could be the goddess of wisdom herself, base on her origin. She would just trick him into destroy himself than her, since he's better at it.

      More about point 2: The first is more about skill than intelligent, and that's not a thing Yukari lacked either: She was able to create a perpeptual machine of the first kind with just a spell card, and judge by the nature of it, she's done that without putting much thought into it, and her Shikigami is already a type of sentient robot, she could also do most of the thing he could do (aside from the universe destroying thing). The second is more about insight, and that's, again, is something Yukari excel with her boundary-peering eyes that could even see what someone else would see at the time.

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    • Personally I was gonna side with Rick until reading both arguments.

      On one hand they intend to kill each other without being bloodlusted and have prep time. So easily Rick should be able to gain some item to find out how to easily kill Yukari while Yukari finds out his weakpoint at the same time. What Andy is referring to as a natural person without using any powers, Yukari is much much stronger than the glass cannon that is Rick. Although I don't feel the speed equalization is necessary since technically Rick would be either much faster or much slower than Yukari depending on the usage of the MFTL spaceship. 

      I also doubt that Yukari can beat everyone that's on a higher tier considering she's arguably planet to that constellation level too. 

      Personally the way I see it, everything they would use against the enemy would be counterred or negated. Either somewhere along the way they're going to end up killing each other or just get tired and call it a day before getting on a drunk shenanigans and oh god no I don't want to ship them while they destroy everything because of their trolling tendencies. 

      There's also the reasoning that you have WoG to rely on for Rick's 2C feat and his grand feat of breaking time was more of an accident. Either way they're much more even if you disregard that and instead focus on their haxx. Physically Yukari is superior, Rick is superior on tech. So it's a tie.

      Without prep time they still oneshot each other and can go either way imo.

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    • ^Remember that he's doesn't have any defense against hax (remember that he could just die like a normal person) if he doesn't use his gadget on time. And boundary's greatest strength is in it diversity. She could literally dropped him into a time-freeze chamber while stripping him of his gadget at the same times, sealing her victory. Or she could just copy the tech by way of probing his mind right at the start (or hell, even before that, since some could said that's not an attack) and trolly replace it with even better and more improved one...or just mind-washed him right away (unless he installed some anti-washed microchip in his brain that I didn't know about).

      ...Though to be honest, some anti-reality warping gear could delay her advance jusssst enough for him to harm her, if he could build it. But then she probably going to prepare countermeasure for it, which then.... ARGH, in the end it's just going to be the countermeasure fight between 1200 or more years of boundaring and 80 years of drunkenly travelling everywhere... which kiiiiiinnnnda put it in Yukari's favor.

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    • If it's a matter of time and mortality, Rick could always put project Phoenix back into motion lol.

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    • ^Project Phoenix? Is it another Rickfact that I didn't know about?

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    • Yeah lol. It's where he clones younger bodies of himself and jacks himself into them to attain pseudo immortality. Unfortunately, after an incident in a teenage body, he decided to terminate the operation by...terminating the bodies. With an axe.

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    • CoreOfimBalance(COB) wrote:
      Personally I was gonna side with Rick until reading both arguments.

      On one hand they intend to kill each other without being bloodlusted and have prep time. So easily Rick should be able to gain some item to find out how to easily kill Yukari while Yukari finds out his weakpoint at the same time. What Andy is referring to as a natural person without using any powers, Yukari is much much stronger than the glass cannon that is Rick. Although I don't feel the speed equalization is necessary since technically Rick would be either much faster or much slower than Yukari depending on the usage of the MFTL spaceship. 

      I also doubt that Yukari can beat everyone that's on a higher tier considering she's arguably planet to that constellation level too. 

      Personally the way I see it, everything they would use against the enemy would be counterred or negated. Either somewhere along the way they're going to end up killing each other or just get tired and call it a day before getting on a drunk shenanigans and oh god no I don't want to ship them while they destroy everything because of their trolling tendencies. 

      There's also the reasoning that you have WoG to rely on for Rick's 2C feat and his grand feat of breaking time was more of an accident. Either way they're much more even if you disregard that and instead focus on their haxx. Physically Yukari is superior, Rick is superior on tech. So it's a tie.

      Without prep time they still oneshot each other and can go either way imo.

      i agree with this 

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    • So, the one way I could think of that could decided this is:

      In chess, which one would win?

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    • Oh man Project Phoenix was beautiful, but also dangerous. Kinda why Rick axed it.... Get it? Axed? ahahaha. I'm gonna go away now.

      In Chess, I don't think Rick has even the desire or interest to play chess but I wouldn't be surprised if he wins. Overall though I lean on Yukari for having superior physical stats, but even that's only a microscopic level smaller than anything Rick made with that mini universe.

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    • ^Not like the way to do it is hard though, consider that she does do something similar. Just a seed and some pocket space.

      Edit: Heck, she even got a spell card name "Universe of Matter and Antimatter"

      Edit 2:... Though how does a miniverse generate enough energy to power a car is beyond me.

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    • yukari for reasons above

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    • At the moment siding with Yukari due to reasons above.

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    • Since nothing more have been stated, I just going to do the vote:

      Yukari:4 (Me,COB, Yomi, ScarletFirefly)

      Rick:1 (Xanix)

      Inconclusive:1 (Kuro)

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    • Wait, what is the extend of their knowledge to each other? Is it first time, basic or throughout?  

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    • Andykhang wrote:
      Wait, what is the extend of their knowledge to each other? Is it first time, basic or throughout?  

      Since they have prep time, they should know who they're up against, so it's either basic or extensive.

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    • I mean if they have knowledge of each other before the prep? Like been given a spreadsheet of their basic abillity or watch all of their franchise. Because no matter the extend, Yukari would later know her opponent like the palm of her hand, while she would make sure other can't do the same, like hiding in her gap while letting her eyes watching his every move, thought and feeling, all the atom and particle and how they would act within his own body. The battle could have been over even before the fight you know.

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    • No, Rick can just make a make a universe busting weapon and it'll all be over.

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    • Rick for reasons above.

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    • Yukari can get away with her gaps the moment he uses that however. There's also the issue that he could do that, and she could form a gap inside his stomache and kill him before he even gets that universe busting weapon started.

      And typically we go by feats here that are actually done. Not just WoG statements unless it's a last resort.

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    • He did destroy a universe before. Many actually WoG comes into play stating that he could destroy a multiverse that's infinite.

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    • Yeah I just recalled. But was it the mini universe or that timeline episode? Because that wasn't to his planning last I remember. And it would be a risky gamble if used in a fight. But yeah even then he would still be a glass cannon in the end right?

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    • It was in the comics, where he was fully aware of the consequences. Mini verse is actually a high 3-A feat.

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    • I still don't understand how making a small universe is on that level if it's mini. But which comics? I didn't know about the existence of those. Link me up?

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    • ^Well, There isn't any law that said the universe should be big. Size is relative. Because of that though, making a universe the size of an atom would also be considered a high 3-A feat, and that's a bit absurd.

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    • CoreOfimBalance(COB) wrote: I still don't understand how making a small universe is on that level if it's mini. But which comics? I didn't know about the existence of those. Link me up?

      I don't know where to find them myself.

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    • Andykhang wrote:
      ^Well, There isn't any law that said the universe should be big. Size is relative. Because of that though, making a universe the size of an atom would also be considered a high 3-A feat, and that's a bit absurd.

      Eh? You're pointing something out and you yourself thought that your own point is ridiculous?

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    • ^Hey, just because it's fact (contecjure in this case though), doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous. Though that would help my case, since Yukari can make thing like that, and have already done so with Gensokyo.

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    • Though I have very little knowledge on Touhou and even less on Rick & Morty I have calculated some ways that one could kill the other

      They have prep time and cannot kill eachother until they meet up

      Rick using his intelligence could build a device before battle that could block Yukari's Boundary manipulation ability or have a meseeks find something that could or something to help against Danmaku that will be fired, then he could use the particle-watch, the freeze ray and a hammer, or the portal gun to finish off Yukari

      Yukari could tear Rick apart with Danmaku bullets or gap him to a place like infront of a train Youkai are stronger then humans too so unless Rick brought along something to balnce this will also be a advantage

      If help is allowed Rick will have to make sure Morty is armed with the right tools and weapons for taking down a Youkai that manipulates boundaries as I doubt an unarmed Morty will be of help ESPECIALLY if Yukari brings along her Shikigami or just her Shikigami's Shikigami

      overall if it is to be in Rick's favor he will need to have prep time to prepare the tools necessary to face someone of Yukari's powers and abilities

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    • ^"That could block Boundary Manipulation", you know that mean he have to invent something that could block everything right? Like literally everything, since everything have a boundary. More over, you also need overwhelming power to not let her get any chance, since she could turn the boundary of chance to her will. That's like asking a device that could summon a Lovecraftian god: It's ridiculously hard, and it isn't going to end well for both of them.

      And beside, Yukari have the same, or higher level of intellect, but have way more base resource and method of collecting than him. By the time he done collecting his stuff and build such device, she would already build 10 level of countermeasures and even an identical one for kicks.

      Remember, they have the same prep time, but one could exploit it better than others.

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    • Andykhang wrote:
      Counter Statement

      Hm, well despite the english you have a point but despite the small knowledge I will give a counter statement

      Rick has done feats such as growing a homeless naked guy to the size of America then blew him up, Creating a Jupiter sized explosion from a recipe simillar to concentrated dark matter, Erased entire timelines just by merging universes and capable of blowing up the multiverse

      Despite all she's done for Gensokyo such as suggesting the barrier that made it she was forced to pull back when launching an invasion on the Moon when the Lunarians fought back despite all the power she has at her disposal, Rick would've had stuff more advanced then Lunarians

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    • ^She's plan to lose that Lunar Wars in the first place (you could know more by reading the wiki), with the pretext for the youkai to learn about the danger of greedily wanting to expand your territory (and maybe her true purpose is to learn about the barrier). If she really want to win, she would do it with only two small group of people as decoy like what she did in Silent Sinner in Blue. Heck, winning against a freaking advance civilization that discover the secret to immortality, having wormhole and could take over the earth without anyone notice (and probably way more) isn't even her main goal...though probably it's true that Rick have stuff that's more advance than them.

      And about these feat you're talking though... it's not like she can't done anything like that (though I don't know about merging timelines though, since they're the thing that sound large but have small effect, and still can't grasp how he did it)

      Edit 2:...Though I'll bet she already know the method and already have the material and processing technique to do it in the first place.

      Edit 3:...And there is still the boundary between fantasy and reality.

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    • Hm. this is tough. I'm just going through their profiles, though I know a lot more about Rick than Yukari, but I'll be as objective as possible. Yukari's Boundary Manipulation is something fierce and she's not as reckless as Rick is, not to mention she's lived longer giving her more experience in quantity. 

      However, Rick is potentially far more dangerous since he plays around with 4-D tech and WoG says he can destroy an infinite multiverse if he wanted to, which to my knowledge is far higher in scope than anything Touhou has in feats. He also likely deals with many more various creatures than Yukari due to his dimension hopping across the Multiverse, meaning he has experience in quality. 

      In the end, I'll go for Rick due to his higher AP and having more intelligence feats on him. 

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    • ^In term of opponent though, it's not like she lacked any in her own verse. The Lunar Capital, Takamagahara (in which the Lunar Capital is based on), the Olympic, Heaven, The Dragon God, ... each of them have crazy power and hax that you couldn't imagine (some of them is known to travel between world and even creating concept), because old creation myth is that crazy. Against these guy, it's not weird that she have to have countermeasures to be able to live as long as her while still being a real potential threat.

      And still, the Multiverse (not infinite multiverse, mind you, that's another tier altogether) still need considerable prep time you know. And who to said she isn't going to tamper with it without his notice and turn it into a universal ice cream machine ? (not to mention the pyrrhic victory...)

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    • MarvelFanatic119
      MarvelFanatic119 removed this reply because:
      Repeated comment
      11:44, August 28, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • As I said, don't know about Touhou, so thanks for the info. Though the same can be easily said for Rick due to going to different dimensions and realities and meeting higher dimensional beings and making counters to them. 

      His profile states he can destroy the Multiverse, containing an infinite number of Universes, with enough prep and if he's serious, which is a solid 2-A rating. 3-4 days of time and wanting to kill her should be enough for him. Even by feats alone, Rick is still Universe+ alone due to messing with 4-D tech and messing with space time which is STILL above anything Yukari has in feats, especially casual ones. Rick wouldn't care as long as he gets the job done. 

      OP states they cannot attack each other until they meet, otherwise Rick can do the same by just pressing a button and stopping time completely if he wanted to. 

      They're both devoted to the death of each other, so Rick would likely not care as long as he wins. 

      Still voting for Rick on this. 

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    • ^Again, what's going to stop her from tampering with the tech he have in his hand right at the start too? Since researching about each other isn't consider an attack, she would know precisely what he have in his hand and what he can do, while Rick can't be sure to be able to do the same thing. And most of his counter against elder gods-like being is raising a middle finger and running away at godspeed, or just sucking their big ass balls, since in the end he's just human (though you could said the same about Yukari...)

      And you know if he pulled that feat, he would lose too right? Since he isn't pulling any feat that he would escape all of this.

      Edit: And you know destroying timeline isn't going to work if she just hide in the side of Fantasy right?

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    • What's stopping him from making his tech immune to her Boundary Manipulation? Prep time here is for both so he'll know her abilities and its limitations as well. Also, what makes you sure Yukari would know how to counter Rick's tech? It's from the 4th Dimension and from another reality altogether. 

      His tech he made as follows:

      -Created a ray gun to kill a higher dimensional being that was immune to "traditional matter" and energy attacks for money. 

      -Created an infinite space time-continuum to power his spaceship 

      -Created a device that stops time on a universal scale and a side effect of stopping time for too long causes ripples and tears in space-time for any "uncertainty" a person who wasn't affected by the device thinks of, used it to give him and his grandkids time to clean their house

      -A device that destroys a timeline as a side effect for merging Universes 

      Any of these would show that he could make something to counter a god-like being if he wanted to, he likes to screw around and is hardly serious. 

      Ever think he would find a way to make himself not be affected by his device? He did when he stopped time, and even made Morty and Summer fine as well. No reason to assume he can't here, especially if he's serious. 

      You seem to focus on the fact Rick is a crazy drunk sociopath, not the fact he's a crazy drunk sociopath who's a Supergenius and has 4-D tech he screws around with and makes Universe altering/destroying devices for fun and has travelled to different dimensions and realities. 

      Edit: And do you know that that won't work if Rick finds a way to neutralize Yukari's powers, stops or kills her before using them? 

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    • ^... because she could read his thought, feeling, his entire being the moment this match is propose? Because she could do that with her boundary. More over, she have enough intelligent and insight to actually understand his wisdom (and if she doesn't have enough, there's still boundary to help), and the boundary between reality and fantasy to help with the gadget and resource.

      Saying this would push the boundary of speculation though.

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    • And again, what stops Rick from finding a way from counteracting her powers completely and making them useless the moment the fight starts?

      Prep matches in general push the boundary of speculation. 

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    • ^Because again, what stop her from building the countermeasure just for that? And again, that device would need to be able to block everything, that isn't going to be easy to build, and just a slight misinformation would completely make such a device useless. And information warfare is, again, one of Yukari's forte.

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    • And what's stopping Rick for making the countermeasures for that? See the problem here?

      Rick, again, created Universe altering/destroying devices in his spare time for fun, that alone should tell you he's intelligent enough to pull it off. 

      What's stopping him for making a countermeasure to Yukari spying on him? Considering he has the resources and the intelligence to do just that. 

      His prep has a MUCH higher tier range than Yukari does, assuming she can do the same is ridiculous. 

      Unless you show me something that shows Yukari can be Low 2-C or 2-A with prep, I'm not gonna be convinced anytime soon. 

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    • ^Because she could do that way faster than him building countermeasure for it? Remember that her brain is fast enough to do that and could be amped up even further with Boundary? Beside, it's not like everyday you would meet a boundary-controlling monster you know.

      And yeah, this would turn into who could build countermeasures faster, again. This would turn into inconclusive at this rate.

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    • And again, you're assuming she can make countermeasures better than Rick. You're not giving me actual prep feats or WoG statements that are in the same level as Rick. THIS is why I'm not convinced. 

      It's also not everyday you meet a crazy drunk sociopath with access to 4-D technology and the ability to create Universe altering/destroying devices for the hck of it, and possibly one that can alter/destroy the Multiverse either. 

      That's very prep fight ever. 

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    • To be honest, it's not like we know if she even met such an opponent that would require that level of prep. Because with her power, she could just supertask herself into making antimatter, creating impossible thing such as a perpeptual machine, and building a freking verse .

      And again, same amount of knowledge remember? With that combine with her ability (again), she could just build a hyperbolic time chamber (like Rick) to build and improve it even better.

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    • Saying things like that is a No-Limits Fallacy . Also, Rick already did all that stuff, not really special. 

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    • ^And again, same amount of knowledge remember due to her pulling out information faster than him? With that combine with her ability (again), she could just build a hyperbolic time chamber (like Rick) to build and improve it even better.

      And yeah... so, inconclusive I guess?

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    • Getting information faster than someone =/= Same level of intelligence, I can get more info on a topic than someone, doesn't mean I'll learn and understand as easily or faster than them. ESPECIALLY if the person in question has better prep feats than the other by a long shot. 

      That is again, a No-Limits Fallacy. No feat or statement to support this at all. Not buying it. Yukai having the same knowledge as Rick is a Fallacy, especially to the level Rick has in intelligence. 

      STILL going for Rick. Let's just agree to disagree. 

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    • You might be wrong on that Marvel. Shikigamis by themselves are already mathemathical geniuses who can find out formulas for immensely difficult problems. Calculating the Sanzu River which is said to be close to impossible is something Ran Yakumo did. By Gensokyo's terms and even to the outside world, they're super geniuses.

      And somehow she cannot comprehend Yukari Yakumo's intelligence who can calculate 1000 variables in a second. It's like comparing a baby to an adult. Someone who's already known to be a supergenius is completely overshadowed by Yukari Yakumo, who is like Rick, lazy and never makes full use of their powers.


      Oh Boundary Manipulation should be countered? Well the thing is... There are several WoG statements regarding the power of that.

      Yukari's ability is the "manipulation of boundaries". It's a far-too-powerful ability that can, logically speaking, affect anything. Naturally, if she put this ability to its full use it wouldn't even be a game, so for the purposes of the narrative she fights within the spellcard rules.

      https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Who%27s_Who_of_Humans_%26_Youkai_in_Gensokyo/Yukari_Yakumo,_Ran_Yakumo,_and_Chen

      Yukari states in her own win quotes in Immaterial and Missing Power that she has no weaknesses, and even shooting, cutting, stabbing, hitting, or killing her is useless.

      Her Imperishable Night profile also states that "she easily has enough power to annihilate all of Gensokyo if she so desires"[6], while the manual says that"the danger and power of her ability is beyond imagination".[7]

      This is part of the world that can also make people cease to exist by erasing past, present and future, manipulating fate, manipulating life and death, unleash nukes, make parallel worlds (Toyosatomimi) that have the moon and a planet nearby. 

      One correction though. Fart, the cloud that you were talking about being a higher dimension, is from another dimension. However it's the same issue as comparing science and magic. He needed anti-matter to kill the gaseous being sure, but Yukari has access to that too. With ease.

      I'm not trying to say Yukari wins tbh, although I do side with her. Naturally Touhou is vague and frankly I agree with you on prep time debates. However it still doesn't hold the fact that Rick is prone to mistakes too. How does one exactly counter bounder manipulation? And what if Yukari pulls out another trick that counters what counters the bounder manipulation. Which in turn reveals Rick has a trump card for and Yukari has a trump card for again and then again- it's literally the battle of ass pull trump cards. Sides, Yukari still has the 2-D based ability and the capability to escape with the range of her gaps.

      But I'm saying that WoG statements in Touhou exists too. 

      Oh and still believing it's a tie, slightly leaning on Yukari.

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    • ^Oh yeah, not to mention the fact that Gensokyo is in itself another universe on it own, that would mean the feat she pulled would mean wiping out a 4-D construct.

      How can I debate like you do, COB.

      edit: For proof that it's another universe: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dr._Latency%27s_Freak_Report/Story

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    • I am REALLY proud of myself for this match. Pat on the back, me.

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    • @CoreOfimBalance

      I see. Thank you for the info, COB. Much appreciated. 

      I know Rick is prone to mistakes, as his reckless and drunkness make him do so, but he's no slouch either.

      The Sanzu River and calculating 1000 variables in a second is very impressive, though I still personally don't find it as impressive as creating an infinite space-time continuum and use it as a battery, a device that merges universes or making a device that freezes time on a universal scale, these being casual stuff Rick made for the heck of it. Or destroying an inifinite Multiverse if he wanted to. 

      As I said, Boundary Manipulation is a VERY potent hax and difficult to counter, but Rick has experienced and met other worldly beings before and his equipment is extremely advanced, so if anyone can create a counter to that I believe Rick can be one of them. Not to mention there ARE limitations to Boundary Manipulation, whether or not Rick can capitalize on those limitations is hard to say. 

      On that note, I'll say it's a tie as well, due to the nature of Yukari's Bounday powers, but I'm slightly leaning towards Rick. 

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    • So, is everyone saying inconclusive?

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    • ^Yeah, probably. I, COB,Kuro, and some others lean on Yukari while Marvel,Xanix and others is on Rick side.

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    • @Marvel Oh the Sanzu River and 1000 variables are something sh does in a whim, without a train of thought. She can actually calculate the volume of the Sanzu River and other things. But I agree, and yet at the same time I disagree. Although similar both are a bit different. On one hand Ricky's genius clearly shows on the science side and use of logic to make grand/epic things happen. While Yukari shines on defining the improbable or impossible. Both are geniuses, on their own fields I mean. Although I do agree on Rick's WoG being more impressive due to being more clearer.

      Indeed it is but I once considered the troubles that gave Yukari on that. By technicality she hasn't lost against the Watatsukis and actually faked her defeat. On another hand she created Gensokyo didn't she but doesn't she live in a place that's between Gensokyo and who knows what? Zun only said no one in Gensokyo can touch the lunarians and on the limitations of having to travel to the moon, it could've been the boundaries of space being used in order to 'stealthily' go there instead of just charging in. But that's speculation and whether you interpret it as fact or not is up to you, and I agree that capitalizing on those would be the answer to whether Rick can counter the boundaries or not.

      No trouble there. I love both characters and frankly I imagine a tie being more satisfactory anyway,

      @Andy

      Simple, by perform the arts of "Yukkuri shiteitte ne!"

      In all seriousness it's basically acknowledging every source you can have and finding out more. Then again I'm not really debating here more like showing those details that people missed.

      @Real cal

      Looks like it. Shall we put it in their profiles or wait a bit? And here let me pat you too. Suikaaaaa! Give Real cal a giant pat!

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    • Lol. I'll request it in a few hours, just in case anyone else wants to respond.

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    • ^Remember to put out the vote list so that they could know how much people vote.

      Edit: Vote pun optional

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    • @COB: And actually, the fan one doesn't defeat her either, but rather force her into surrender by making a threat against Gensokyo. She knew Yukari isn't going to go down easily.

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    • CoreOfimBalance(COB) wrote:
      it's literally the battle of ass pull trump cards.

      Wonder if as some point in their fight, Yukari is just going to pulled out a "counter everything" button she made earlier in the boundary of Fantasy. I mean it sound probable...

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    • ...I think it's best we say it's just inconclusive while the debates still in the calm

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    • Like the Sea of Tranquility, debate are only calm on papers. (yes, I just read xkcd today, why did you ask?)

      jk aside, did we have enough input for this already?

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    • Yeah.. I've seen enough to determine it's a tie, they're just gonna counter everything and either keep battling till one of them decides to quit, end up killing eachother, give up or basically destroy everything around them anyway..

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    • We need a minimum of seven though....Guess we have enough

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