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  • Dark649
    Dark649 closed this thread because:
    Going in circles.
    22:06, September 30, 2018

    I did a similar thread in the past, i propose two versions without the powerlevels scaling or only Kaioken Boosts.

    Note 1: The first version was rejected because it abused powerlevels scaling.

    2] Without Powerlevels Scaling:

    Saiyan Saga:

    - Remains the same.

    Vegeta Saga:

    - Full Power Nappa and Base Goku speed would be Relativistic+ [57,4 SoL], due being twice as fast than Raditz, who easily blitzed both BoZ Goku and Piccolo. Nappa easily kept with the Z-Fighterz that are faster than Raditz while being suppressed.

    - Kaioken Goku speed x2 = FTL [1,148 SoL], x3 = FTL [1,722 SoL], x4 = FTL [2,296 SoL]

    - A full powered Great Ape Vegeta could be Planet level+ [Over 2,1 Yottatons].

    Namek and Ginyu Saga:

    - Everything remains the same sans the FTL speed.

    - Ginyu remains at least Planet level.

    - Goku KKx2 = Great Ape Vegeta and reaches into Large Planet level with Kaiokenx3-10.

    - Goku easily blitzed the Ginyu Force, who are faster than Kkx4 Goku, so he should be 6 FTL Sol in base, so his Kaioken states are FTL+.

    Frieza Saga:

    - Base Frieza remains FTL+, Dwarf Star level [1.7 Tenatons] but becomes twice as fast/strong since his statement and that he made Post Zenkai Vegeta worthless, so Dwarf Star level [3,4 Tenatons], MFTL [106 SoL].

    - Third Form is slightly over x1,481, so Dwarf Star level+ [5 Tenatons], MFTL [156,986 SoL].

    - Base Goku is much stronger than Third Form Frieza and Post Zenkai Vegeta, so x1.5 = At least Dwarf Star level+ [7,5 Tenatons], MFTL [235,479 SoL].

    - Kaiokenx20 brings him at Small Star level [150 Tenatons], MFTL+ [4709,58 SoL] and only bruised Frieza.

    - Due to Frieza being half of his power both him and Goku reach Star level.

    Android Saga and Onwards:

    - Small Star level for the Base Saiyans starts with Base Trunks.

    - Large Star level starts with Semi-Perfect Cell. The at least on Large Star level char. could be removed.

    - Post Spirit Room Base Trunks and Vegeta remains Small Star level, while Base Goku, Gohan and later Vegeta in the Buu Saga would be Star level.

    - Everything else remains the same.

    3] Only Kaioken Boosts [Suggested by Kep]:

    Speed:

    Goku = 0.14c.

    KKx4 Goku = 0.56c.

    Ginyu Goku = KKx4 Goku = 0.56c.

    Ginyu Goku KKx10 = 5.6c.

    2nd Form Freeza and Piccolo = 5.6c.

    Goku Post-Zenkai = 5.6c.

    Goku Post Zenkai Kaiokenx10 and Kaiokenx20 = 56c and 112c.

    100% Freeza = Either at least 112c or 224c via him stating he was at half of his speed and strength. 

    AP [My version]:                           

    Goku = 69,69 Zettatons.           

    Kkx4 Goku = 278 Zettatons.       

    Ginyu Goku = 278 Zettatons.      

    Ginyu Goku KKx10 = 2,780 Yottatons.  

    First Form Frieza = 1.7 Tenatons. 

    Second Form Frieza = 3,4 Tenatons.

    Third Form = 5 Tenatons.

    Base Goku = 7,5 Tenatons.

    Kkx20 Goku = 150 Tenatons. 

    100% Frieza = 300 Tenatons. 

    Android 18 = 600 Tenatons.

    Semi-Perfect Cell = 1200 Tenatons. 

    Users can chose the version that is more fitting.

    Note 2: This could be highlighted. I'm personally neutral on the outcome. This is manga continuity, but if this is accepted i will make also revisions to the Anime Toei characters based on this.

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    • Large planet level? Why?

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    • Massively FTL+ DBZ is asinine.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Massively FTL+ DBZ is asinine.

      Could you explain why what he purposed is wrong instead of just disagreeing with the concept?

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    • That 666 Zettatons result for Wily's laser is because it was at 1% of its power, the actual result is 6.66 Zettatons which isn't even 5-B.

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    • Would this affect the TOEI continuity too?

      EDIT: Didn't read that last line, excuse me.

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    • Could you please link the calcs that are being used as the basis of the scaling in the opening post?

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    • Personally the 3rd option is the only one were everyone could mostly agree on and it also the safest.

      The 2nd option is uncertain but still possible, while the 1st option isn't going to be accepted, not even by me.

      But i do not feel like Vegeta's statement should be interpreted literally.

      The real cal howard Why exactly? Even a fodder like Raditz was  capable to react and dodge an attack supposed to be faster than Piccolo's Moon busting Ki blast which was calculated to have Relativistic speed, 50% Frieza could be most likely be Massively FTL.

      So it not fully say unreasonable to think of the possibility of Cell Saga Tiers or Buu Saga Tiers be potentially MFTL+.

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    • Speed scales with power in Dragon Ball, so its only logical that Frieza would possibly reach MTFL or close to those speeds scaling from Raditz who is WAY weaker than him

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    • Huesito88 wrote:
      Large planet level? Why?

      Because Krillin oneshoted 4 Raditzes and each of them stomps 70 zettatons Piccolo

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:

      But i do not feel like Vegeta's statement should be interpreted literally.

      There's no problem interpreting it literally since turning the planet to ashes isn't even 5-B.

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    • Because fuck feats that justify a tier, amirite? Unearned numbers can get you as high as possible without any of the work.

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    • All Ki blasts being assumed to be as fast, or faster, than Piccolo's Moon-busting Ki blast has always seemed weird to me.

      Like, we don't really see a lot of other Ki blasts leaving orbit until the Cell Saga, do we?

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    • Jobbo wrote:

      There's no problem interpreting it literally since turning the planet to ashes isn't even 5-B.

      Pretty sure it requid more than baseline 5-B energy output.

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    • DB logic ^

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    • The calc Dark linked in the OP shows otherwise, it's only 6.66 Zettatons.

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    • Actually, I’m gonna stop being cheeky for a second and actually answer this. It can be Low 5-B/5-C because it doesn’t necessarily have to go past GBE.

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    • Using powers level as linear scaling to get stuff like Ginyu being 25 Yottatons and 50 times FTL is a massive no. Power levels don't work like that at all.

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    • Krillin obliterating a bunch of Saibamen at once is something to consider, Mo-Ri has his 4-A key for oneshotting a few hundred quadrillion Low 4-Cs.

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    • Damage3245 wrote:
      All Ki blasts being assumed to be as fast, or faster, than Piccolo's Moon-busting Ki blast has always seemed weird to me.

      So do you think a Kamehameha from Buu Saga Goku and a Kamehameha from Early DBZ Goku are going to travel at the same speed? Personally it seen very unlikely.

      Pretty sure it was establish that Ki Attacks not only become stronger but also faster over time, and this is the only explanation of how DBZ characters can be tag and hit by other Ki Attacks despire the fact a weakling like Raditz was capable do dodge one at point blank. 

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    • Jobbo wrote:
      Krillin obliterating a bunch of Saibamen at once is something to consider, Mo-Ri has his 4-A key for oneshotting a few hundred quadrillion Low 4-Cs.

      If that the case then the same logic should be apply to Krillin as well. 

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      I see, then i retract my statement.

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    • Perhaps the Ki blast Raditz dodged wasn't as fast as the Moon-busting one then? It's a possibility at least.

      All Piccolo commented on his speed was "No one can move that quickly!" which just means that Raditz is faster than all other Dragon Ball characters up to that point.

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    • Piccolo hadn't improved at all when he did that so there's no reason for his moon blast to be faster.

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    • I'm pretty sure Raditz dodged the Special Beam Cannon which is a charged attack thus holds more power and speed than a casual Ki blast which he threw at the moon

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    • Damage3245 wrote:
      Perhaps the Ki blast Raditz dodged wasn't as fast as the Moon-busting one then? It's a possibility at least.

      That's very unlikely, it was never suggest or implied that the Makakosappo was unable to moving as fast or of be even slower than the Moon busting Ki Blast, only that it take a lot of time and concentration to fully charge.

      Damage3245 wrote:
      All Piccolo commented on his speed was "No one can move that quickly!" which just means that Raditz is faster than all other Dragon Ball characters up to that point.

      And how this prove the Makakosappo was had a speed lower than Piccolo's Moon busting attack?

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      I'm pretty sure Raditz dodged the Special Beam Cannon which is a charged attack thus holds more power and speed than a casual Ki blast which he threw at the moon

      Exactly, we all know that more Ki a character had a more faster it would be able to move and react, i don't see reason why it cannot be apply to Ki attacks in general.

      Especially when we see that even High Tiers and Top Tiers in DBZ can still be tagged and hit by energy blasts, and since is really unlikely that characters were getting slower, it means their energy blasts were getting faster.

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    • If we were to consider the Krillin thing, I believe the scaling would look like this:

      Piccolo: 70 Zettatons

      Krillin: 280 Zettatons

      Goku Kkx4: 1120 Zettatons

      Pre-Zenkai Namek Goku: 1.12 Yottatons (Unsure about this one because with Kkx10 he'd have a higher BP than Frieza who is High 5-A, perhaps it'd be better to backscale him from Frieza)

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    • Jobbo wrote:
      Piccolo hadn't improved at all when he did that so there's no reason for his moon blast to be faster.

      Ok i'm not sure what are you trying to tell, the argument here is about the Makakosappo be faster than Piccolo Moon busting blast, not the latter of be faster than itself (which doesn't make sense).

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    • I'm iffy about Massively FTL+ without plus sign, but Massively FTL seems reasonable IMO. To be fair, there is a possible Massively FTL+ speed feat closer to baseline in early Dragon Ball Super. Prior to the Battle of Gods saga and before the arrival of Beerus, base from Vegeta was casually reacted to machine generated turret lasers on an environment of 1000 G's. However, this point in time most likely has Goku an Vegeta overwhelmingly stronger than Super Buu and Buu saga Vegito, so it probably doesn't scale to anyone.

      But I'm unsure if those turret lasers existed in earlier sagas, or if Vegeta reacted to them on the 300, 400, 450 G's respectively. It's been a long time since I read the Manga. And lets definitely not use PL's linearly.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:

      Unless there is enough evidence that prove the lasers were trully moving at LS, i don't think it can be used.

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    • I know, I was merely mentioning it. I'm not sure if they're real lasers either. I know lasers fired from fingers are obviously not real lasers, but machine generated ones are more likely than Ki lasers obviously. But we'll still need to look at more details.

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    • Strongly disagree with the first option. 2 or 3 are better, and I'm inclined to disagree with MFTL too. No at least Solar System level for Vegito, he's not clearing a billions gap

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    • Given how controversial this topic is, would it be better to close this thread and restart it in the staff only forum (after which it can be highlighted)?

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    • I'm just curious if there are any other supporting feats from DBZ for lightspeed and above ratings, since right now it seems Piccolo's feat is used as the basis for just about everything.

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    • There's none. The only faster feat is Frieza's Death Ball calc which uses the planet size from Lina's calc which hasn't been accepted, so that calc should be out as well.

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    • Promestein wrote:
      Strongly disagree with the first option. 2 or 3 are better, and I'm inclined to disagree with MFTL too. No at least Solar System level for Vegito, he's not clearing a billions gap

      Why "atleast"? Hadn't Cell already achieved Solar System level? Vegito should be clear cut Solar System level as he is ridiculously stronger than Cell

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    • Damage3245 wrote:

      There is Master Roshi's Moon busting feat but it considered an outlier.

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    • I don't think we need to close the thread rather than simply move it to staff discussion board. and perhaps delete posts that aren't necessary contributing.

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    • I said No at least Solar System level. Of course he's Solar System level.

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    • By the way, Frieza's calcs really should be sorted out. His speed and AP calcs use completely different planet sizes, stick to one.

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    • We only use one for Canon Dragon Ball, the other only applied to Toeiverse for filler, movie, and GT continuuity. Don't get the two mixed up @Jobbo.

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    • Yeah, common misconception is that the King Vegeta feat of blowing up 3 planets in a handwave is canon

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    • His speed calc uses 10x Earth's size for Vegeta.

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    • Goku reacted to Cell's Kamehameha that left Earth's atmosphere, right? Maybe that could be calced?

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    • Damage3245 wrote:
      Goku reacted to Cell's Kamehameha that left Earth's atmosphere, right? Maybe that could be calced?

      With no stated speed we can't calculate that, any other attemp would be considered calc stacking.

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    • I think that Promestein makes sense.

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    • @Jobbo, it uses 10x Earth's mass, but uses identical volume to Earth. We know it's 10 G's, but we don't know exact diameter of Vegeta in canon, so we go by same size as Earth, but make the density 10x greater.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      We only use one for Canon Dragon Ball, the other only applied to Toeiverse for filler, movie, and GT continuuity. Don't get the two mixed up @Jobbo.

      Tell that to the profile

      Both are linked to Frieza's canon profile

      And actually the current canon scaing uses Frieza's Supernova speed with an unknown-font-size (Like, I tried to check the link, but I could find anything)

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    • His speed calc uses 10x the diameter.

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    • Antoniofer wrote:

      With no stated speed we can't calculate that, any other attemp would be considered calc stacking.

      Well, if we calced the speed then all we could say is "Goku reacted to an attack that calced to be this fast".

      It'd be something at least.

      Right now I'm not sure how to feel about almost all the speed in DBZ being based on a single feat.

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    • I think is based in two feats, the Piccolo one and the Frieza one, there's another one in Buu Saga but it do not surpass SoL.

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    • Jobbo wrote:
      His speed calc uses 10x the diameter.

      Why?

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    • The Frieza one is about to become invalid.

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    • Promestein wrote:
      Strongly disagree with the first option. 2 or 3 are better, and I'm inclined to disagree with MFTL too. No at least Solar System level for Vegito, he's not clearing a billions gap

      Agree with everything expect the MFTL part.

      Already 100% Frieza and SSj1 Goku are currently ranked at FTL+, the jump to actual MFTL isn't a big stretch, not of someone like Perfect Cell or Far Buu.

      Even with the 3 option MFTL was been archived by Kaioken 20x Goku and 50% Frieza. 

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    • The value was obtained from Lina's calc.

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    • Damage3245 wrote:

      Well, if we calced the speed then all we could say is "Goku reacted to an attack that calced to be this fast".

      It'd be something at least.

      Right now I'm not sure how to feel about almost all the speed in DBZ being based on a single feat.

      Attempted to, but barely got Sub-Rel+ with a weird assumption (Krillin was falling to ground during the attack so I assumed the Kamehameha made the distance before Krillin fell) and just MHS+ using anime-timeframe

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    • Antoniofer wrote:
      I think is based in two feats, the Piccolo one and the Frieza one, there's another one in Buu Saga but it do not surpass SoL.

      What is the Buu Saga feat?

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    • Damage3245 wrote:

      What is the Buu Saga feat?

      Probably Gotenks flying across the world multiple times over.

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    • Presumably Gotenks' feat.

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    • @Damage, Gotenks circling earth in less than 10 m. Although, it also works as "anti-feat" for Piccolo since he was unable to keep with him.

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    • Dragonball characters only became FTL through the introduction of Dyspo

      ovo

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    • Well... wouldn't that suggest that their combat speed may be Relativistic or FTL, but their travel speed is way, way less than that? Perhaps that's worth looking into.

      It would also make sense in Namek Saga considering how none of them circle the globe at the speed of light, and takes several minutes to fly anywhere.

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    • Gotenks flying around wasn't hard for him. That's like downplaying Beerus to planet because he destroyed a planet and that's an antifeat to him doing the universal stuff.

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    • Before anyone brings up the Goku circling Namek thing, that got debunked a long time ago.

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    • Damage3245 wrote:
      Well... wouldn't that suggest that their combat speed may be Relativistic or FTL, but their travel speed is way, way less than that? Perhaps that's worth looking into.

      Either we do that (like how lifting strength < striking strength) or we start to ignored travel speed all together due be so underwhelming compare with attack speed, combat speed and reactions.

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    • Planet Vegeta's size should also be looked into. Earth is considered a small planet so I don't think it's reasonable to assume Vegeta is the same size.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      Gotenks flying around wasn't hard for him. That's like downplaying Beerus to planet because he destroyed a planet and that's an antifeat to him doing the universal stuff.

      It was just said a few posts up that it was an antifeat for Piccolo, not Gotenks.

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    • Jobbo wrote:
      Before anyone brings up the Goku circling Namek thing, that got debunked a long time ago.

      How?

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    • @Warren, cuz Frieza and allies weren't localized in the other side of the planet, they were just a few kilometers from the ship where Goku was localized, he even mentioned it.

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    • I prefer option 2.

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    • Since option 1 is bad/disagreed, i could remove it and keep only 2 and 3.

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    • @Dark649

      I'd say remove it.

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    • Remind me why is the Frieza calc no longer usable?

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    • Which Frieza calc? The old 1.7 Tenaton feat is currently usable for now, but I think we aren't using the 0.25c speed feat since we got a better one. Even Raditz has the 0.14c speed feat that scales to everyone and with characters being overwhelmingly faster.

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    • I was refering to the speed one.

      So, are we reduced to one single calc again?

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    • I don't agree with any of this.It is not like my opinion matters much but I don't approve jumping form 1.7 tenatons to 1200 tenatons or from 0.14c to 224 with no feats at all.

      This is ridiculous.

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    • Antoniofer wrote:
      I was refering to the speed one.

      So, are we reduced to one single calc again?

      Unless we count Master Roshi's Moon busting feat as valid and no longer an outlier, then yes.

      But i'm pretty sure this was always the case, everyone's speed had always been scaled from Piccolo's feat.

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    • Roshi's moonbusting was his full power and we know charged moves are way stronger than their regular attacks, though i'm not advocating for it not being an outlier

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    • Kep told me that Roshi feat was calced at Planet level. Relativistic, said Roshi is weaker than Old Piccolo, who is inferior to his Younger State, which was killed by Post Water Kid Goku, the latter is weaker to 23° Budokai Yamcha, Tao Pai Pai and Tien, who are much weaker to Kami, 23° Budokai Goku and Piccolo.

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    • @Dzhindzholia, some characters are closer the SPC's 1000 Kilofoe feat rather than they are to First Form Frieza's 1.7 Tenaton feat. I understand it's hard, but having a whole bunch of characters be at least High 5-A likely far higher via A > B > C logic, is really redundant to the the point where it's bad. Same with at least Relativistic likely Far higher. In fact, that latter is worse. Option 3 is the safest lowball we can find if anything.

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    • @Dzhindzholia You have to have scaling and statements too or else everyone from DBZ Saiyan-Buu saga is Planet to Star level and just Relativistic+++

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    • Dark649 wrote:
      Kep told me that Roshi feat was calced at Planet level. Relativistic, said Roshi is inferior to Young Piccolo, Post Water Kid Goku, 23 Budokai Chiaotzu, Yamcha, Tao Pai Pai and Tien, who are much weaker to Kami, Goku and Piccolo.

      That as Buffed Roshi while using his 100% Kamehameha.

      Only 23rd Budokai Goku and 23rd Budokai Piccolo who should be get scaled from 100% Kamehameha, as the Super Kamehameha was imply to be stronger than 100% Kamehameha, which is also conferm in a guidebook.

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    • 0166-011
      0170-014








      After Tien fight, he stated that they are stronger.

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    • Dark649 wrote:
      Roshi has stated, mainly after seeing Tien that he they are stronger.

      I still think it would be more safe to scale only Budokai 23rd Goku and Piccolo as in that case it was suggest Goku's Super Kamehameha to be stronger than his 100% Kamehameha, while with Tien it can be interpreted as the former be stronger than Master Roshi without the 100% Kamehameha.

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    • @Damage3245

      Weren't you supposed to write up your own new Dragon Ball scaling suggestion, or do I misremember?

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    • High 5-A to low 4-C or rel to FTL is a lot better than exaggerating with ridiculuos multipliers.

      Cell doesn't have 1kilofoe feat,he has a statement.

      @LightinAnt 

      How is that bad for the verse with no Star Level or SOL level feats?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      @Damage3245

      Weren't you supposed to write up your own new Dragon Ball scaling suggestion, or do I misremember?

      I was originally planning on doing that, but then Dark649 said he was already working on it so I decided not to overlap his work.

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    • I agree with Ant and Dzhind it’s better to have the feats to go off of than nothing or this is gonna be just like the Seven Deadly Sin’s problem we had a month ago with scaling

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    • You have to use scaling or else we'd have Planet level/Relativistic Buu saga characters and FTL only in the TOP through Dyspo

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    • Dzhindzholia wrote:
      High 5-A to low 4-C or rel to FTL is a lot better than exaggerating with ridiculuos multipliers.

      Expect the Kaioken Multipliers have been accepted as valid, and unless decided otherwise they can be used just like the Dying Will Flame from Reborn or the Gear 4th from One Piece.

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    • @AstralKing7

      I have modified my last post. I am the wrong person to ask about this subject.

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      You have to use scaling or else we'd have Planet level/Relativistic Buu saga characters and FTL only in the TOP through Dyspo

      Actually, Beerus and Champa have their own MFTL+ feats.

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    • Maybe asking Azathoth to evaluate whether version 2 or 3 is best would be an idea? Although that could take a while.

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    • Can anyone explain to me how we got MFTL+ and 2x Frieza = Android 18 stuff? i am confused. And was Ginyu Saga Goku even able to get to KKx10?

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    • Ehh, I don't think Goku had kkx10 at the time he fought Ginyu, I think he was able to used due the zenkai. Either way, no, Ginyu do not have the meants to use Goku's technics.

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    • Well, IMO, i was thinking into a more conservative scaling without the use of multipliers for AP (Sorry is measy, I'm on cellphone)

      Dwarf Star level (1.7 Tenatons) 1st Form Frieza

      At least High 5-A for 2nd and 3rd form Frieza (The previous calc isn't far beyond Small Star level)

      Low 4-C for Final Form Frieza 50% and KKx20 Goku and the Spirit Bomb (Given the inmense jump in power)

      Low 4-C Frieza 100% and SSJ Goku (Namek), Mecha Frieza and SSJ Trunks (Low 4-C has a big gap in power)

      Likely Low 4-C Androids 19-20 (The likes of Gohan are well below Gero according to Piccolo, and, even before the 3 years training, Gohan could stagger 3rd Form Frieza, so I guess this is a fair rating)

      Low 4-C+ Pre Training SSJ Goku, likely Piccolo post Training

      4-C Post Training SSJ Goku, SSJ Vegeta, Androids 17-18, Piccolo-Kami, etc (The Androids are stronger than Vegeta, but not by an inmense margin)

      4-C+ Imperfect Cell and Android 16 (Cell easily defeated Piccolo and 17)

      High 4-C... Everyone from SemiPerfect Cell up to Super Perfect Cell basically

      Large Star level (4.535 Foe) Shin (Who being honest, given that he is weaker than the Rusty SSJ Buu Saga Gohan, but not by much, and his terror of fighting Dabura, who is Perfect Cell level, he should be around ASSJ Vegeta if you ask me)

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    • SomebodyData wrote:
      Can anyone explain to me how we got MFTL+ and 2x Frieza = Android 18 stuff? i am confused. And was Ginyu Saga Goku even able to get to KKx10?

      Its due to an upward speed scaling of x2 stomp boosts, transformations and kaioken boosts. x2 Frieza is because he was 50% of his power and it does not correlate to Android 18, who casually broke SS Trunks sword, which previously killed Mecha Frieza.

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    • AidenBrooks999 wrote:
      Well, IMO, i was thinking into a more conservative scaling without the use of multipliers for AP.

      The Kaioken multipliers were accepted, and Super Perfect Cell 4-B. Also Dabura is stronger than Perfect Cell since Goku said that he's a lot stronger than he thought.

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    • Antoniofer wrote:
      Ehh, I don't think Goku had kkx10 at the time he fought Ginyu.

      Wrong .

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    • Oh god... please stop using those scans for Dragon Ball. Just as a public service.

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    • He said he is stronger but not in terms of power, literally the line before that refers to his magic

      And even if KK is accepted, you should only use that So: 1st Form Frieza 1.7 Tenatons (Dwarf Star level)

      Goku post Zenkai: (At least) 1.7 Tenatons

      Goku kkx20 and Frieza 50% and Spirit Bomb: 34 Tenatons (Small Star level)

      SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza: 68 Tenatons (Small Star level)

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    • Dark649 wrote:
      Antoniofer wrote:
      Ehh, I don't think Goku had kkx10 at the time he fought Ginyu.
      Wrong .

      Ahh, didn't remember that... Also yes, those scans are awful. But Ginyu is unable to use any type of kk.

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    • @Dark We can't just put a random multiplier on stomp boosts.

      @Aiden Though I'm pretty sure Goku was refering to stronger in terms of power. At least, given that Goku generally doesn't go out of his way to say x is stronger due to an ability.

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    • I think that in thread "Ginyu Goku" is Goku in the Ginyu Arc, not when they switched bodies

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    • Why would Post Zenkai Base Goku be equal to First Form Frieza when he fought a very casual Final Form Frieza, who killed Post Zenkai Vegeta that surpassed his Third Form that easily defeated Post Nail Piccolo in power?.

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    • Post Zenkai Goku is stronger than any Frieza prior to his final form, you can tell that by looking at their respective PL (not use multiplied of course).

      @Aiden, I see.

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    • Dark649 wrote:
      Why would Post Zenkai Base Goku be equal to First Form Frieza when he fought a very casual Final Form Frieza, who killed Post Zenkai Vegeta that surpassed his Third Form that easily defeated Post Nail Piccolo in power?.

      "At least"

      Look, multipliers are kind of problematic, even if we use KK's, that's all we should use

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    • They aren't problematic, atleast for Super Saiyan 1 since it has to be atleast stronger than 40x in the context of the fight and was confirmed in guides/Toriyama that its 50x times

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    • The third option suggested by Kep in speed assumes that Goku speed was 0.14c [the same as Piccolo beam] when he fought Vegeta, which is not the same because he should have got faster after training with King Kai since he kept up with Full Power Nappa, who should be faster than Krillin that oneshotted 4 Saibaman that are equal to Raditz that blitzed both Goku and Vegeta.

      Ginyu Saga Base Goku is faster than Kaiokenx4 Base Saiyan Saga Goku since he blitzed Recoome, Jeice and Burter, who are stronger than Post Zenkai Vegeta that killed Zarbon.

      2nd Form Freeza and Piccolo are faster than Ginyu Saga Kaiokenx10 Goku because its only slightly faster than Base Frieza, Second Form Frieza implied that has no problems to blitz and kill Post Zenkai Vegeta, who briefly stopped his first form.

      Goku Post-Zenkai is faster than Frieza three forms and Post Zenkai Vegeta against casual Final Frieza.

      - That is the reason why the second option has higher ratings.

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    • I think that the better we can do is put the "at least", "likely higher" and/or "likely far higher", that last option is considered calc stacking is most of the cases.

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    • Man I always forget calc stacking is a thing 🤦‍♂️

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    • I think speed should just stay how it is.

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    • Antoniofer wrote:
      I think that the better we can do is put the "at least", "likely higher" and/or "likely far higher", that last option is considered calc stacking is most of the cases.

      And KK's multipliers?

      Like, using KKx20 on Piccolo's calc and using for Namek Saga (Much stronger basically) Goku and others?



      If not, then the entire series become Relativistic lmao

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    • SomebodyData wrote:
      I think speed should just stay how it is.

      The FTL+ speed has not reason to being in there, it should be changed. Kaioken multipliers were also accepted, the other series can use multipliers but not dbz.

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    • AidenBrooks999 wrote: If not, then the entire series become Relativistic lmao

      That might fit in better with Gotenks' feat :P

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    • FTL+ comes from KKx20 on Post-Zenkai Goku who is at least as fast as KKx4 Saiyan Saga Goku

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    • Damage3245 wrote:
      AidenBrooks999 wrote: If not, then the entire series become Relativistic lmao
      That might fit in better with Gotenks' feat :P

      Pretty sure Gotenks being as fast as BOS Piccolo's attack is more unfitting.

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    • I will close the thread as it will likely lead to nothing since Matthew and Azathoth will also reject this.

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