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  • {Insert joke here}

    Speed equalized.

    • Goomba: 3 (Jackythejack, Mr. Bambu, GyroNutz)
    • Inconclusive:
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    • Is the goomba allowes to grow wings to become a paragoomba or no?

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    • Jackythejack wrote: Is the goomba allowes to grow wings to become a paragoomba or no?

      Yes.

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    • I'd say that Goomba probably has this due to just being able to get out of range of what Speed wagon  can throw at him, or that's what I'm assuming, and that goomba shoe it has is going to be a big nuisance to the guy. So, I give it to Goomba.

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    • Bump.

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    • Bump.

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    • Bump.

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    • Goomba via flight, not much else to say. Speedwagon seems like a man with no Stand, so... yeah. 

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    • Bump

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    • Goomba FRA

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    • It seems like nobody read Speedwagon's equipment. He carries his bladed hat, a throwing weapon that can be used at a distance? 

      Considering Goomba's wings gets clipped by literally any sort of damage, and Speedwagons hat has cut through 8-C Jonathan's arm straight to the bone, I think it's reasonable to assume he can use it to clip Goomba's wings and then proceed to stomp him. There's no risk for Speedwagon considering they're the same speed.

      I vote Robert.

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    • Should Speedwagons hat be 8-C for harming Jonathan?

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    • No point in making his hat 8-C. It's common knowledge that pointed/sharp weaponry hits way above its listed tier.

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    • Even with that equipment, not as versatile as Goomba, and... what? Why is that common knowledge lol? Shear force calcs are a thing, we can calc the strength of pretty much anything on this site, why would a pointy weapon be superior to its given tier? 

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    • I think he means piercing damage; that's why bullets and blades can still hurt 9-B animals, for example, they're not hitting, they're cutting through.

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    • Ah. Well, a 9-C weapon can harm a 9-B, just at a slower rate. Especially when hitting some special nerve or organ. But... no, weapons are pretty accurately where they are. If the page is 9-B, then it would be 9-B. A CRT can be made if you like. 

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    • Shooting a bullet can have about as much force as a punch.

      I don't need to tell you which one is 10-B and which one is 9-B, do I?

      Goomba is the opposite of versatile. He has little to no intelligence, he can't turn around very quickly and he lacks any limbs for any sort of range. Speedwagon jumps on it and Goomba dies.

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    • Yes, and despite having the force of a punch we still rate it 9-C, so yes, acrt is needed for it

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    • We do not rate handguns as 10-B despite having the same force as a punch. There is no CRT needed for common sense.

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    • Yes, exactly. They are capable of hurting 9-Cs just fine, so we rate them at that. If the hat can hurt a 8-C, then it needs to be rated that, because each fiction has it rules and most ignore this

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    • Here is the scene:

      Speedwagon manages to slice through an 8-C's arm straight to the bone while using his hat. Furthermore, he also dodges the Hypersonic+ knife moving towards him.

      There's no CRT needed if I am providing you the explicit evidence. This is an open and shut case, Speedwagons hat can cut way above its tier.

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    • The rules of the wiki litiraly say that it needs to be on the page or its not usable.

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    • Profiles are made to inform the un-informed. They are not an exhausitve list of every single thing a character has done, nor should they be treated as such.

      That being said, feel free to point out to me where you see this supposed rule.

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    • In fact, this comes straight from site rules:

      • Basically, we are well aware of that not all profiles are reliable, as it is an impossible task for so many characters from wildly different franchises. However, we consider everything a work in progress, and have worked extremely hard to manage, and gradually improve, the wiki as well as we are able under the circumstances. The quality would have been enormously worse if the staff had not devoted so much of their time and energy.
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    • Goomba is baseline wall level rigth?Speedwagon can kill fodder zombies who pack a punch with 0.32 tons of TNT worth of force,now look at the difference between 0.0005 tons and 0.32 tons and also the fact that he is more intelligent,has better experience and equipment he can just bitch slap him and make him explode.

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    • but nooo "the rules of the wiki litiraly say that it needs to be on the page"

      I'm still waiting for the apparent rule, @Ricsi

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    • okay, few things to address here. 

      1. What bullet feels like a punch? Aside from a few of the weaker firearms I've seen, that is far from true. Additionally, very few guns are 9-B (snipers and the like, mostly). Most reside on the lower bounds of 9-C. 

      2. Yes. A CRT can be made, I don't get why you have an issue with using the information that is verified by the wiki. Provide evidence in said CRT and he can be 8-C with that, and then it gets immediately restricted in the fight due to stompage. That's how it works. 

      3. Goomba is not baseline wall level. And where does your assumtpion for Speedwagon's strength come from, coz that's not 9-B, that's 9-A (0.25 tons and above). Goomba's AP comes from 3 calcs I did a long while back as a favor to Imaginym. This calc allows Goomba to scale to 8.48e6 Joules. That's well into Wall level. Goomba may scale to Koopa, who survived a small tsunami wave that ranked at a higher AP. 

      4. @Professor Should I get an admin to explain how this whole versus debating thing works? Basically, the rule is in place so even people who aren't familiar with the verse are able to have a good idea on how it works. Hence why updating profiles is so bloody important here, it is to make sure that each character is understood to the point where someone with little to no knowledge of JoJo's can make a case for/against it by reading the profile, which would optimally provide all relevant information. 

      Hell, you probably wouldn't even need a CRT for such a minor thing, just go to a JoJo-supporting admin and show them your evidence, I don't doubt it is viable, just that, if it is, it needs to be restricted for this fight to happen fairly. 8-C vs 9-B is a stomp, no offense meant. 

      Also, as a final note, can I see a calc for Speedwagon's AP, if such a thing exists? Otherwise, he would be considered baseline 9-B. 

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    • I have an issue with making a CRT because you guys are acting like "hurr hurr there goes his argument". If I provide you the example of his hat harming an 8-C fighter there should be no problem. This is fundementals. Just because we missed or forgot something on his profile doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability. But because your argument is still flawed, I will concede and give in to the suggestion that this scene never happened.

      Speedwagon has a 46kg tnt feat, actually. He killed one of those guys. Goomba's 8.48e6 joules feat is only 2kg tnt. The difference in their attack potency is well beyond one-shot range. Speedwagon kicks the goomba and it dies.

      Yes please go bring in an admin to explain how this works. You are refusing blantant evidence and feats just because it is missing from his profile. I shouldn't have to explain how dumb that is.

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    • Piercing damage is also kind of why oxen or lions aren't bulletproof or swordproof, even though they're 9-B.

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    • As I said, 9-C can harm 9-B. But if you take a pistol to fight a lion, not gonna do so well. To hunt a lion, one normally equips a high powered rifle which would be bordering on 9-B anyways, if not flat out in the tier. 

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    • Also, Professor, you are literally the only one trying the whole "hurr durr there goes his argument" with constantly claiming to debunk things. CRTs are just a rule of the thing, if that weapon is 8-C, it should be restricted for making this a stomp, that's just how it works. 

      And, if it IS 8-C, and thus he loses it due to stompage... he doesn't have the range for fighting Goomba who can fly. 

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    • Show me the rule. I will wait.

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    • Yeah, that's the point, pistols aren't 9-B, but they can harm 9-Bs, in the same way Speedwagon's hat can harm a 8-C Jonathan without being 8-C, because it's piercing, that doesn't mean he will one-shot a 9-B.

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    • @Paulo, that is a very arbitrary method of thinking. You're looking at the real world in the view of a VS Debater. A pistol deals some thousands of joules of energy. Those thousands of joules can harm a 9-B in the same way that a soft punch with 10-C power behind it (say, 40 Joules) can harm a 10-A feasibly. hell, if I pinched a 10-A, weak as I am, he'd still be hurt from it. 

      TL;DR, tiers only apply here, and they are used liberally to define power levels when a tier lower or two (depending on the size of the tier) can harm tiers above it. It isn't as two-dimensional as you present it.

      @Lord I'll go get an admin to explain this to you. 

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    • restricting abilities and weaponry now? i believe you cannot do that in a fight.

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    • Yes you can. it happens literally all of the time to make a matchup more fair for both combatants. 

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    • No, that's restricting a character's form, such as using Goku from an earlier incarnation.

      You cannot restrict abilities, and I believe you cannot restrict weaponry as well, though I may be wrong on that last one.

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    • Ask any staff member. This stuff happens, again, pretty commonly. It may not occur much for JoJo's characters, since you seem solely interested in defending said pages despite all the facts, but it is something that occurs. 

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    • I've shown you evidence against the contrary, that I do not need a CRT for a literal feat. You said you would get an admin but I do not see one as of yet.

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    • That's the one flaw the tiering system has, it can't take piercing damage into account, because of the small surface area they take; it doesn't have to damage the entire body, just a small piece of it, which is not as durable as the entire body, that's why you need less energy to cut or pierce something than you need to actually break that thing by punching.

      That's why Speedwagon doesn't need to be as strong as Jonathan to scratch his arm, being 8-C doesn't make Jonathan cutproof, and while Speedwagon did take a hit to the face from Jonathan, Jonathan was holding back heavily and purposefully trying not to kill him (that's the entire point of the fight, Speedwagon noticed he was going easy on him and decided to help him); I really don't see 8-C Speedwagon happening.

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    • I don't think it's 8-C Speedwagon, at least not without a revision.

      I think it's Speedwagon having access to an 8-C attack

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    • I have contacted an admin. Azzy. Secondly, a CRT is to show others. Like I said, I believe that it'd be 8-C. And... it'd be 8-C with that attack, basically. Another tier would be added. "9-B8-C via (whatever)"

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    • Also, didn't Jonathan only bstart fighting equally with 8-Cs after his training with Zeppeli? The Speedwagon fight was before that.

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    • Dargoo has said that the calc linked is for vampires, not zombies, which are "consistently shown" to be beneath them. Do we have a backup calc to support Speedwagon, or do we assume baseline? 

      Also, the 8-C CRT is a thing you've already made, so for now, we wait. 

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    • Does Speedwagon have a comparable feat to [this]?

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    • @Metabro Why link a mario game lol? 

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    • Because Goombas are Mario characters, and one survived the explosion in the link? 🤔

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    • I'm assuming you meant to say Goomba and not Speedwagon. Additionally, since we don't know how close to the epicenter the Goomba was/how many obstacles were between it and the blast itself, not sure the feat is quantifiable. Or if we should disregard it as PIS. Or whatever. 

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    • No, I meant what I said. Does Speedwagon have anything comparable to it? Because I can’t recall anything Speedwagon survived being remotely similar to this

      Hardly matter how close they are to the epicenter when the explosion blew the entire fortress to smithereens and sent the whole group flying God knows how far away. Definitely higher than wall level lol

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    • Well yeah, it does. As an explosion goes out from the epicenter, the force gets weaker. And yeah, could be, but could also be PIS. Not saying it is, not knowledgeable on Mario, really, but yeah. 

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    • “As an explosion goes out from the epicenter, the force gets weaker.”

      When the force of an explosion is already so high, it’s still going to be very powerful regardless of how much of that energy got dispersed. Again, the solid stone fortress was in smithereens. That takes a huge amount of energy

      “And yeah, could be, but could also be PIS. Not saying it is, not knowledgeable on Mario, really, but yeah.”

      You would be surprised how resilient Goombas can be. This Goomba for instance led an assault against Fawful and won

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    • Behind walls, which are tanking said force, and away from the force, you'd be surprised how unimpressive a feat can be, even behind such impressive show. I got 6-B on a global glacier once. 

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    • You’re standing 50m from a nuke going off. Do you trust two or three brick walls to protect you? Nope, you’re still fried

      The force of this blast blew even the outer walls of the fortress to indistinguishable pebbles. It sent the group flying at least hundreds of meters away even though they were within the deepest reaches of the fortress

      Speedwagon can’t compare

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    • That wasn't a nuke, at best it'd be something along the lines of the explosion from V for Vendetta (even then, questionable). Nukes are different in the fact that A. more powerful and B. radiation kills whatever is left. 

      But yeah, it is almost certainly higher than 9-B, but that isn't on their profile, nor has it been calc'd, so we can't really justify using it unless both happen. 

      If the feat IS added, then this fight is a very bad stomp in Goomba's favor. 

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    • https://media1.tenor.com/images/a4697e6b37c784b8c12f2cc7db9ad6e1/tenor.gif?itemid=8654562

      The point is that when an explosion is large and powerful enough, it doesn’t matter how many stone walls are in front if you if you’re caught in blast radius

      “But yeah, it is almost certainly higher than 9-B, but that isn't on their profile, nor has it been calc'd, so we can't really justify using it unless both happen.”

      We most certainly can. It’s a clear cut feat that’s easily above anything Speedwagon has done

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    • 1. Yes, it does. They can tank force from it. 

      2. No, it is about as not clear cut anything like an explosion can be. We don't know how little of the force Goomba actually tanked due to lack of knowledge on the walls, his position, and so on. At best we could lowball it into the ground and assume he was on the outermost edges of the blast and get something like 9-A/8-C or so. 

      But yeah, aside from Speedwagon dealing damage to a low-end 8-C with a weapon, it would be above what what baseline Speedwagon has. At that point the thread would have to be closed. 

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    • “Yes, it does. They can tank force from it.“

      The walls? They were pulverized by the blast so they most certainly could not contain any reasonable amount of energy from it lol

      “No, it is about as not clear cut anything like an explosion can be. We don't know how little of the force Goomba actually tanked due to lack of knowledge on the walls, his position, and so on. At best we could lowball it into the ground and assume he was on the outermost edges of the blast and get something like 9-A/8-C or so.”

      They were in the throne room, as in likely the most inner part of the fortress. Pretty much where the video shows the explosion originated. We also see Bowser and the group flying from the explosion’s epicenter

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    • Tank some portion of the force. Some amount of energy hitting Goomba is negated destroying those walls. 

      Speculation and assumtpions should be kept minimal. 

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    • Breh

      If even the outer walls were obliterated by the blast, whatever energy was absorbed by the walls is going to be insignificant. The entire fortress practically disintegrated by the explosion. Its walls obviously couldn’t shield or absorb squat

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    • I've told you the facts. If you'd rather not hear 'em, that's fine. My advice for the future, though, is that feats can appear a lot better than they really are. With as many factors as you're completely disregarding, it could come out a lot lower than you expect considering that's only an 8-B or so explosion. 

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    • “I've told you the facts”

      lol Okay guy

      >explosion originates within the center of the fortress

      >group is in the center of the fortress, where the throne room is

      >explosion is powerful enough to turn the entire structure to dust

      >Bowser and co. seen flying from the center of the explosion

      >”But the walls that were basically paper mache to the explosion totally shielded 99.99999999999% of the explosion’s energy”

      “it could come out a lot lower than you expect considering that's only an 8-B or so explosion”

      That’s exactly what it comes out to, and city block level craps over anything Speedwagon (and most Jojo characters) has

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    • Back to the topic at hand, I'm still for Goomba for winning. Metabro, if you'd like to vote, feel free, but we use what is on the page. 

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    • Besides the argument of his hats tier, is he also like incredibly accurate with it? Like he'll never miss an attack ever? Because if not then it would be a one use thing if he misses, considering the Goomba probably wouldn't allow him to get it back and would fight tooth and nail to make sure he doesn't get that hat.

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    • It doesn't help that Goomba's page is missing one or two power-ups he has, like Super Leaf and Super Bell.

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    • Yeah. I could probably take a look at the explosion above and provide some safe lowballs, maybe a Goomba CRT is in order. Goomba has done a lot through the years lol. 

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    • Does the boot also like, increase his AP at al? It feels like it would but I can't be too sure honestly. I still don't know how calcs work and stuff

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    • To my knowledge, no, but it does increase mobility and the like. It also allows them to stand on things they'd otherwise be harmed by. 

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    • Well this is over now. I concluded my revision for Speedwagon, he now has an 8-C weapon. He throws his Buzzsaw Hat and cuts the poor Goomba in half.

      I still vote Speedwagon.

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    • A FANDOM user
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