I've just been wondering what is our wiki's take on listing pokémon's powers and abilities based on Abilities and Moves?
Take Tyrantrum for example. Do we list its powers based on Abilities and Moves? As in ALL learnable moves via tutoring, breeding, TM, HM, etc.? Or do we just list powers based on the natural learnset?
On that subject, in a vs match with a pokémon, are wild and trained pokémon differentiated by movepool? Is it correct to assume that a stated wild pokémon only has powers from its natural moveset by lvl up, while a trained one can have all moves by TM, HM, breeding etc.?
You know, after having that many conversations where we kinda are questioning ourselves about how people don't usually care much about Lavos' other options in general, I kinda reached the conclusion that the profile is to blame.
As much as the skillset is "complete" (hear me out on this one), Misc stuff I got thinking for verses like SMT in the past as well as the way weaker DGM and this recent digi stuff made me think that we might want to put all the missing - minor or not - stuff.
This wouldn't be as much a revision as it would be just putting literal things that Lavos directly displays in combat to the profile and what it entails.
I feel like the less used options are the ones with not much clarification so maybe we can work something out. As everything we'll cover here is actually displayed in combat, this will be very very, simple (if only *cough* time-consuming).
So, since I'm actually free from work today, I'm making this convo in case I forget something. With that and without further ado, will be getting my facts straight and any help or stuff I might forget, do tell me so we can discuss before doing anything.
Explosion Manipulation (Second form has this, also copied from Dragon Tank. Lavos Spawn uses an explosive attack as well via Blanket Bomb.)
Technological Manipulation (Copied the Dragon Tank, copied the Guardian and replicated their auxiliary machines. Not to mention how the Mammon Machine is all but an extension of the thing.)
Status Effects (Kinda already listed, but so far I've seen Chaos, Confusion, Sap and Sleep. Dream Devourer also has *gasp* Omnilock!!! ...No, I'm not going crazy, this is a whole different omnilock - there's a status in CTDS called "Omnilock" which prevents the affected character from using techniques or items. It's like the advanced "Lock" which you might remember as a question mark on the chacters head. Sadly, I can't find a video where he actually inflicts Omnilock anywhere for the love of my life. I'll elaborate more on this later.)
Darkness Manip (Via Dark Bomb and basically having canonically copied Magus' entire skillset)
Generates Shockwaves via Annihilation Zone (Scaling from Elder Lavos Spawn, because really, saying the main Lavos can't do something a spawn does would be out of nowhere)
Water Manipulation (Via Water Surge and having all of Hekran's skillset)
Light Manipulation (Via annnihilation ray)
Wind Manipulation (Via copying Masa e Mune)
Vaccum Manipulation/Attacks (Via Vacuum Wave)
Masamune Powers (Copied them. Also should be noted that the plot supports this since you need Dreamstone to repair the Masamune which was forget from Dreamstone - like Marle's pendant - and can conduct Lavos' energy, channeling it for external use and store and that's the reason these things get special properties in the first place).
Can seal or unlock Portals (Copied Magus)
Hell Geyser (Inflicts the Sap status effect which passively drains the energy of those attacked. AOE from this is neat and also looks like a bunch of souls raise from a pillar of light)
Immortality (Type 2, can keep fighting with both its head and insides destroyed, just as its core)
Telekinesis (Copied Azala's Psychokinesis)
Teleportation (Copied from Azala as well. Can teleport objects from afar like huge boulders)
Telepathy (Copied from Azala, can be used to put others to sleep, too)
Anyways, it's confirmed that Lavos mind-controlled Zeal through the Mammon Machine (either that or he did so while sleeping or feeding on the planet as the dialogue implies, which kinda makes the feat more huh!).
This is supported by the plot thanks to others (mainly the Gurus who are close to her, I think Schala says it too at some point though I'm not reminded of the scene) saying that her behavior changed along with the whole "Let's use Lavos' energy."
If you have Magus in your party for the final battle against her he also mentions that she is duped/deceived by Lavos.
So what do you know? I looked at the profile and Mind Manip isn't there. Like, at all. Maybe because we have Memory from DD onwards, but Mind is nowhere to be seen and that Lavos did since Base.
Power Mimicry: From what I get from looking at it, Lavos looks at whatever point in space-time and copies the skillset of what he wants. I don't know if the thing copying the stats of the intended target as well counts as game mechanics (probably yes).
List of what he insta-copied includes:
1. Machines that couldn't have possibly been manipulated by it controlling evolution (Dragon Tank, Guardian).
2. Machine that wasn't even created yet (Guardian should appear in 2300, you fight Lavos in 1999.)
3. Characters that were by no means related to it (Hekran, Zombor)
4. Characters who were kinda transformed into a sword and wielded against it at the time (Masamune)
5. An actual party member whose entire life was dedicated to eliminate it (Magus)
6. Azala and the Black Tyranno, who went extinct 65 million years before this battle takes place and also as soon as a spawn (Infant?) Lavos actually landed on the planet. So there's 0 chances that Lavos manipulated them in any manner whatsoever (well, save for that one Rust Tyranno).
7. Beings that recquire extensions of their bodies or servants for the use of certain skills get corresponding extensions copied so Lavos can use said powers as well.
So yes. The Power Mimicry is quite broken and by no means refers to "He can copy/use the powers of people in league with it". Low-key thinking that him not copying every single boss fight is because the developers thought that would be too long of a rush.
I can't find Dream Devourer doing it for the life of me, but Mother Brain has Memory Reset/Omnilock.
Mother Brain would later become FATE. Mother Brain is also naturally <<<<<<<<< FATE, who was harnessing a fraction of the powers of Lavos through the Frozen Flame for its purposes. Should be noted that FATE mind-haxxes all the population of El-Nido and also Soul Haxxes everyone in Chronopolis so this stuff scales to it... Not that it matters as FATE has no profile and I'm not wasting time making it.
Now whether or not this scales to Lavos (definitely not Base, tho) also having Power Nullification via Omnilock by virtue of being >>>>>>>>>>>>>> both Mother Brain and FATE, who can do such feats, still relying on the Frozen Flame to operate... Is beyond me to answer.
As I don't feel like making any more Lavos revisions and this would be rather complicated, my final opinion on this one is "Eh, whatever, let it fade." unless it's actually just expanding the already accepted Memory Manipulation that is listed in its profile from DD onwards, instead of adding anything, in which case it should be fine.
Smash quotes about Reshiram and Zekrom say they have the power to destroy the world:
"By setting its torch-like tail ablaze, this Pokémon can heat the atmosphere and change the weather. In fact, legend has it that Reshiram's flames are capable of incinerating the world itself, so perhaps the world's continued safety is a sign of its goodwill. Reshiram is said to help those who seek to build a world of truth."
"Zekrom's jet-black body contrasts sharply with the pure white of Reshiram, but the two do have some similarities: both are Legendary Pokémon said to have world- destroying powers. Zekrom's tail acts as a generator that can scorch the world with lightning, but it is said to assist those who wish to build an ideal world."
Beerus is taking on the other GoDs at once and U4's GoD beat him in arm wrestling. And if you recall in the manga Whis said there's a mortal a GoD can't beat, with that GoD being stronger than Beerus. To which Beerus said he only lost to that GoD in arm wrestling.
Simple Natsu as example has high 6-C form, but it's very limited in time. Is it allowed to remove that limit so he can fight a high 6-C or are does simply stomps as he can resist for a minute or two at max.
>I mean, I have work all day and have to drive from Philly to NJ, so...
Response to your just now statement:
>You tryna make me like Digimon or not ovo.
Also, I'm gonna address a possibly nonexistent elephant in the room. Dante nor Digimon inspired me to make that hax dilemma thread. Rimuru did It's been something on my mind for a while. I was gonna make it about a month and a half (or more) ago, and it was larger and worded different, but I thought it'd cause too much backlash. That or it got erased somehow and I didn't bother remaking it.
>Oh you will. Dawn or Dusk will be your first step into it.
I...never thought that. I thought it was just an honest question and something you wanted help with. I mean let's be honest, this mindset is making it hard for you to get into Digimon right. Be honest.
>You'll be fine. Get to a Game Stop. ovo
>Oh you will. Dawn or Dusk will be your first step into it.
I...never thought that. I thought it was just an honest question and something you wanted help with. I mean let's be honest, this mindset is making it hard for you to get into Digimon right. Be honest.
>If one is still open, sure (...pretty sure we're at worst, two hours apart, so it should definitely still be open if you're mentioning it)
>WRONG. Butter-fly was. ovo
>Yeah, it's definitely an honest question. Because not gonna lie, I'm starting to resent how this site treats hax, as it's far from the be-all-end-all almost everyone (including myself, admittedly) thinks it is. Writing hax in the first place is hard to do. I honestly cannot see how a character who can erase things with a thought can be made interesting in a fight, which is where a lot of the attention comes from. (Of course, I'm only speaking of series in which man-vs-man physical conflict is a thing. Things like man-vs-self, man-vs-nature, or man-vs-man w/out physical conflict isn't the case). You can honestly only develop them in a peaceful situation. And there's still the critical aspect of things. I'm not the only one who thinks what I do about power in some series (hax or even AP). Critics and even casual readers think "If x can do abc, then how come he hasn't wrapped this up yet?" which lowers ratings, PIS or no.
Yeah, you're right. Probably would've been into Digimon by now if a) I never discovered VsDebating and met you/Dark/Reppu/Exe on a different forum, 3) never heard of the Pokemon/Digimon rivalry, and/or 3) Child-Cal didn't see some Digimon get deleted in front of Renamon (whether Renamon killed the victim or if the victim was her friend, now that I think about it, I'm not sure. Heck, it was so long ago and the memory is so blocked that it might've been Kyubimon. Kyubimon can use Diamond Storm, right?)
Also, like, Lucemon. How you used the Susanoomon example of have some other OP character take him on. If I remember correctly, nothing happened in that fight in the anime that wouldn't be too much of a problem for even DBS top tiers. So someone who knew anything of Lucemon's hax would be thinking WTF when they see that fight.
Before you read the rest, just know that this doesn't reflect the actual character, series, or those who have upgraded him. Also, massive Cal salt and venting up ahead... Just, plz don't take it personal or anything, because it's not you, or even who I'm about to rant about that's the problem.
And with the hax, Digimon, and VSB thinking, Lucemon is definitely heavy a contributor to my discontent, with his current profile being everything I have malcontent for in all of them. I'm pretty sure current me's dislike of VSBW Lucemon rivals when my Goku wank dislike was at his peak. Heck, I could find a similarity to my views of Lucemon and Goku at the time. When off-site, I really enjoy the series they from, and the characters themselves are fun to watch. On-site, hate them and would get great catharsis from them losing. Just (aside from right now), current me is much better at hiding it, behind memes and the like.
TL;DR. I have no doubt that Lucemon is a great character. But until my hax problem is solved, then Vs Debating has ruined him for me. Which is why I'm really needing help.
I have read the entire thread, yes. The difference between Link and Lucemon though is that Link (Composite) doesn't exist, and is a hypothetical character just as much as the Combined Human is. The most haxed single incarnation of Link is either this oneor this one.
Yes, especially in relation to inherited skills. This is something that has been presented since the beginning of the franchise in the games and we see mentions to this as when Globemon spoke that had the powers of its previous forms. However this was never well covered in the franchise, in Appmon we had several times where the power of Timemon would be useful, but it was never used.
To this day the only characters I remember using their inherited powers are Beelzebumon, Hackmon's family and Lucemon Satan Mode (In Cyber Sleuth he is a mix of all the other SGDLs he faces, including he ends the combat using the same arsenal that their Falldown form.)
@Dragon. Writing hax isn't necessarily hard. Writing hax for a main character(s), while giving them a reason to not use it in combat even if they're gonna die, making it look interesting on-screen, taking too much time to explain it, and/or devolving into PIS incarnate is, imo.
If I made a god character, writing hax and making the character isn't a problem. If I gave similar powers (without the god in it) to the main cast of 1-10 or more characters, I'd have a long writing block, and be stumped to even think of how to make a single confrontation happen while making logical sense.
I mean, even comedy critics like CinemaSins or HISHE point out when a character is too OP it affects the story.
Take my main protagonist, Delia. Throughout the series, the most hax thing she gets is a sort of mind control through a fungus, which she finds morally unsound, and is almost always using plants, axes, h2h, or energy, because that's almost all she can do. I try to picture her using the reality warping on her profile and...I can't.
In my opinion they do it for the sake of characterization. I think of it because they usually show the inherited abilities when this is part of character characterization, as when AppLink occurs in Appmon we see the inherited abilities being used because that is the concept that will be explored with this technique.
However with AppGattai the idea is to present a new character with a power of his own and different from previous forms, so it makes more sense to work with what he has of novelty rather than just reuse what has been worked before.
@Cal It depends how you work it. Balance is key. See my Yuracion Absolon characters to see my point. They use their hax. But there is always a way to counter it. Part of that is me being the type of person to cover all bases and explain every detail.
@Dragon. Give an example for your series please? This isn't doubt, but hope for something to talk me out of my cynicism.
Also, about the over time gaining powers for Lucemon. Too many characters have a 10+ year history and don't have .1% of the things he has. Plus, it's not like whenever he appears next, he shouldn't have his previous abilities. Same with any of the Demon Lords, most Royal Knights, most Dark Masters, Zeed, Ygg, NEO, etc. And given how story driven Digimon is compared to say, Super Mario Bros, it can't be written off with game mechanics. Heck, most Digimon in general with their current AP alone destroys my suspension of disbelief.
Just look at my Yuracion Absolon files, blogs and such. My characters have a lot of Haxes and resistances. Zavin, my main villain has a hax that allows him to see an ability and copy it. Does he always use these abilities? No. Why? Simply not his style. Not only that, but Xros Revolution has the Arte system that are pretty much special skills. I always give my characters the arts needed to defeat a villain. No matter how powerful, the same the other way around. Haxes are built into the series, but a character cannot just throw out hax as they know that the opponent will have a way to counter it or use it against them. Or flat out resist it. There is always something to counter another thing. I cover my basis with the Arte system.
You are assuming the just because others do not gain this much hax in the same amount of time that it shouldn't be possible for it to happen for Lucemon. That's an extremely flawed thought process. Only reason Digimon being so powerful is hard to believe is because you are stuck in the mindset of "Pokemon isn't like that and yet Digimon are their rivals."
Actually, Pokemon surprisingly didn't cross my mind with my above post. In fact, I was thinking more Dragon Ball than anything else. Lucemon being the .00001% in fiction is more relevant, along with that I was trying to state that time doesn't make giving relevant characters abilities to the point of overdoing it, and the fact that he's stopped at all while being what Bill Gates is to money what he is to hax. Not even other Digimon compare. Also, like everyone else, I'm more accustomed to the anime, which looks very different from the ratings.
How would the hax even look? If you were to animate a battle, how would you explain the no-selling? And what hax would counter what? Other than a resistance, what would counter erasing someone with a thought?
But is there truly something such as overdoing it? Fiction has no limit. There is no such thing as over haxing. We set personal limits to how much hax a person should have when those limits do not exist. And if you are only familiar with the anime than it becomes the fault of the viewer. Simple as that. You cannot fault Lucemon for having so much hax as much as you cannot fault Goku for lacking hax. Ever summed this entire part of the conversation up. Don't expect the had to just fly out constantly. You asking the impossible. You are asking for perfection. Something you will never get. So stop thinking something has to be a certain way as you are only closing yourself off because of something irrelevant. All series has flaws. This is a major for flaw for Digimon. But guess what? It doesn't care for vs. And it always has many other things to fall back on. Hax doesn't make a series. This is something you are to focused on. It is almost like an obsession. Your thinking every verse should be the same. Setting these limit denies the point of fiction in the first place. If you cannot get over this simple fact, I cannot help you. If you are going to set these limits then there is no point and even watching, reading or playing anything fiction. We cannot do all the work for you. If you are going to stay cynical despite all we've said, then you as re unintentionally finding things to be cynical about. You yourself have to fix that.
That base is covered, the resist it. Even then, there is the chance one can resist long enough to use an Arte to counter it. Simple answer. Each series has its own way of doing things. There is no one way to "no sell" something. There are multiple ways around something. Character erases you with a thought, you have no resistance? You die. Only way to survive is to resist and counter. It depends on what the series sets up as possible and impossible. You cannot fully avoid PIS. No series will be perfect.
I typed up a whole thing, but it came off as whiny and emo. It was also full of semantics that debated against small bits of your text when you were making a bigger picture. And the main points of it are suspension of disbelief and lack of tension with all that hax. So I'm gonna make a new post to make my point.
Point being...you're right. Hax doesn't determine the quality of the series. It's the characters, story, lore, and themes of the verse that matter. That's what everyone was saying, and I get that. But a character, hero or villain, who can do it all can corrupt that if done wrong. All I want to know is how is it done right, since critics don't care about things like PIS and CIS. How can you make a character down to earth if they transcend reality? (I just really wanted to say that one liner because I like its cleverness.)
Though...this wasn't necessarily about Lucemon. I dislike him and his association with hax because we here think hax makes an interesting and popular character no matter what context, and Lucemon's amount of hax and everyone worshipping him just makes him look like the epitome of it.
I mean, look me in the eye and tell me that the Masadaverse is popular enough to be the fourth most clicked verse here, with SCP being no. 3 Over Disney, Mario, One Piece, Zelda, Pokémon, Digimon, Sailor Moon, Mega Man, Doctor Who, Marvel, DC, etc...
1) Easy characterization and how they truly treat their haxes. Lucemon is a go to example for this and so is my Zavin. The majority of Lucemon's hax is rooted in his character. A lot of his hax also comes from him doing something that isn't fighting as well. Sometimes a character has a hax being they needed to unlock something or needed it to obtain an item. These haxes are just sometimes something that can be used in battle when we transition here. Also the villain does not have to be "down to earth", they just have to well written. Lucemon is his stories is extremely broken in powerful. How do they make the heroes write that off? Susannoomon was one. I Re:Digitize they literally had to weaken him. But that is beside the point, his character has never been down to earth. His character has always been rooted in his goal, his design and his symbolism.My own Zavin is a character who has a lot of hax. How is he down to earth? Well he was based off of Lucemon long before I got here and his whole thing is from a transcendent standpoint. He loves the world, as such his motivations are to rewrite everything, including heaven. How to do that? He had to teach himself all these abilities and work for all these extra powers to face the other haxed Devas and Angels who would try and stop him. Zavin has all his hax for a reason, and he uses it. However, what makes the hax not detrimental in his case is that he's facing characters who also have a ton of hax. How Lucemon is successful, he always ends up getten beaten by a much stronger foe, or having his powers weakened. Frontier, defeated by Susannomon. Digimon World: DS, defeated by the MC who has 6 different Digimon with different haxes on his side. Sayo vs Demon Lords, has countless Digimon to choose from with different haxes. This includes Chronomon. Digimon Xros Wars.....Well they ruined Lucemon (Like they did many Digimon) by making him Lilithmon and Bagramon's lapdog...next...Re:Digitize, had to be weakended by the 3 Great Angels just so that Taiga could have a chance as well as Taiga having protection from some of the other Demon Lords. Savers, same as Digimon Worlds DS. Cyber Sleuth, Takumi literally has a choice of 11 Digimon with different haxes to come at him. Some of these choices can range from Alphamon to even another Lucemon. You are also to worried by what critiques say. That's one sin that does not outweigh to pros of a series. Critiques are not the end all be all. As their are people who loves characters for how OP they are in story and their are critiques that don't. It depends on the person. Critiques are just opinions at the end of the day. Yes, there are objective views, but they are also subjective views as well.
2) Is it truly that we like him for his hax? The likes of me, Fate, Executor and the other Digifans love Lucemon for his character. We've loved Lucemon long before he came here. The hax was just an added bonus. Lucemon is in the same position of Emprah, Reinhard, etc. In a vs community, you see a hax character? You want to see how far that character can go. Or you want to see them lose. es, his hax has put him in the forefront of Tier 2 vs battles.
3) You need to realize that you are crossing two things together. You live in a vs community and a fiction loving community. 1 side loves hax while the other side loves the stories in characters. It is not the same. Stop crossing them over. That's one main point of you problem. You look at fiction from a vs battle standpoint and you look at vs battles from a quality of series standpoint in which to be blunt, is fucking wrong. And doing so causes you to become cynical of certain things for no reason. Your cynicalism is literally "If they have a ton of hax, they are a horrible character". The amount of times we have proven you wrong on this is astounding. At the end of the day, you are arguing semantics in order to stay cynical towards it. Lucemon didn't ask to be put on a vs debating wiki. Reinhard didn't ask for this. Lavos didn't ask for this. It isn't their fault. It isn't no ones fault. It just an issue you made up in your head. And it's time to beat that rubbish mentality into submission. ovo
2) You misunderstand. I'm not talking about the people who actually watch Digimon, but the others. Lucemon is what I see as the figurehead of hax being popularity on this site. There are so many other things in a character besides hax, even on a vs standpoint. That's something we used to know, and it changed early 2017. (Probably another reason I associate Digimon with that. That's when they came into the forefront.) Good ol' fisticuffs is being phased out, and everything is a hax battle when previously, it rarely was unless it was a tier 2+. Currently, the OBD, CV, and even SA appreciate that better than us. I've seen people on those sites admit that yeah, x character is strong, but the series isn't good. (And I'm not referring to any of the series I mentioned above, or implying more power equals more suckiness).
3 We used to balance that out pretty darn well, and like I said above, there are far more qualities in a vs debate than hax, which is rarely the case in vs threads nowadays. Obscure characters like BB are used more than most DB characters combined nowadays. Look at early-mid 2016's most clicked characters. All of them were still from popular series. (Also, you literally described 2015 Cal's view towards I/O, Demonbane, and Umineko. Hated them solely because they were all tier 1. I eventually got over that because I started to like Umineko, I didn't care about I/O, and Demonbane...well, Demonbane is still shit ovo.)
>Anyways, you're still right. A verse should be looked at for the verse itself, and unique abilities are mostly used to give a series just that: uniqueness. They don't care about us at vs debating (heck, some of them hate us), and PIS is, while not a term used by people outside, is completely acceptable, and it's not like my viewers will care about inconsistencies or character x not using hax.
>On the other end, VSBW still values hax way too much, even though there are, as you've said, many other things that make a character. Character-wise and as I've said, power-wise. Actually, that's something I appreciate for Lucemon. At least he's in a fight, more than his hax, and his power and skills come into play.
2) Sorry, but Digimon was not the cause of that. Digimon only started getting into the hax category this year and even then, they weren't popular. Lucemon and Alphamon only got the rise after multiple blogs. However, characters like Reinhard and such were always at the forefront. Digimon only just now have gotten on the radar here. And trust me as me and the other have stated, we love Lucey, but we are sick of him and Alphamon getting all the love. I mean I have made all these Digimon files for a reason. Heck, I made that WereGarurumon vs Shin (never replied to my comment) fight for a reason. Ikeep bumping that Crusadermon vs Kharne fight for a reason. I made Crusadermon vs Hit awhile back for a reason. I want some non hax fights. However, hax fights are also fun. They bring an air of competition in which is fun.
3) Trust me I know. I don't mind hax battles either, but I also love skill battles as well. I like them all. So it doesn't bother me. I will continue to bring Digimon to the forefront no matter what. But as you've seen, I'll use some unknown, less popular mons.
2-3) Actually, Reinhard and co. didn't have profiles at this time last year, iirc :P. And I don't mind hax fights in moderation, and I like tier 2 fights regardless most of the time. But we definitely need more battles based on skill and ability rather than hax. Heck, the Fate series has both, but most of us focus on the hax aspect in fights. Pretty sure Gil can garner some wins without SNI and Ea...
>See, I would've gotten more out of that if it weren't an AMV ovo.
>Punch spam ftw. Also getting oneshotted by Susanoomon. TBH, I would hate to be a fusion. Whether I'm a Digimon, a Gem, or even a DB character.
I mean, I never disliked the series as a whole. I like the silly looking and/or the over-the-top monsters. It's specific ones that I had a problem with, and now it's down to one: Zeed. Because he's doing it for the evuls while Lucey has a much better god complex.
Wait a second...god complex. Is a bishonen. Has a Low 2-C form.
Oh yeah, Zeed is flat. He's like the flatest Digimon villain. He was just power. Nothing more. ovo
Digimon is too self aware, you can claearly see they have fun with design and with databook entries. I like how they describe PrinceMamemon's presonality as "not awful". And like you said, just the over-the-topness they have for EVERYTHING never gets old somehow.
Now if we could only get them to make better names......