So, I've been thumbing through the LotR pages, and you were listed as one of the Knowledgeable Members. Antvasima recommended my starting this conversation. It seems that there are some serious scaling issues with the high-tier Maiar and the most powerful Elves. Gothmog dealt the killing blow to Feanor, who is a "AT LEAST 4-A," and yet only has a 6-B rating. Balrogs also have the feat of dealing serious damage to Tree-amped Ungoliant, who overpowered Melkor. In Morgoth's Ring, Sauron is stated to be greater than Crippled Morgoth, and also only has a 6-B likely higher rating. It seems to me that the high-power Maiar should scale far more closely to the high-power Elves than are portrayed on the wiki. Thoughts?
High-tier Elf fighting Valar. Fingolfin vs Morgoth.
Feanor “saw through the semblance of Melkor and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there the lust for the Silmarils.” That’s a feat of an elf overcoming Melkor’s telepathic shields. Morgoth’s Ring page 97. He created the Silmarils, which burned Morgoth’s avatar and amped Carcharoth to the point where he could pass through the Girdle of Melian (Silmarillion 218).
Feanor is superior to Fingolfin physically. "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."― The Silmarillion, Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
Statement that some of the Maiar are nearly as powerful as the Valar. “And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth.” The Silmarillion, Page 11.
Luthien, a half-Elf half-Maia, was magically strong enough to destroy Sauron’s fortress (Silmarillion 207) and put Morgoth to sleep (213-214).
“Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. This was due to Morgoth weakening himself over time, but the point still holds as supporting evidence for the gap between top-tier Maiar and Valar being not nearly as large as generally assumed. Near the end of the First Age he was still Valar-level. (Morgoth’s Ring Page 394)
“[Elwe Singollo] was a great lord and noble, tallest in stature of all the Children of Illuvatar, and like unto a lord of Maiar.” Morgoth’s Ring Page 86. This one is less concrete because it could just be a literary device comparing the two, but it might also be a direct power thing. He did marry Melian, after all, so she must have regarded him as somewhat equal to her. Page 173 says that “Great power Melian lent to Thingol her spouse, who was in himself great among the Eldar.” She was clearly superior, as a Maia, to one of the greatest of the First Age elves. Page 54 of the Silmarillion states that among all the people of Lorien there were none “more skilled in songs of enchantment.” This can obviously be taken to mean literal enchantments. Melian was strong enough to counteract the Sleep of Yavanna over the country of Beleriand (Silmarillion Page 100).
Thorondor wounds Morgoth, indicating comparability to Fingolfin. (Silmarillion, Page 180)
Felagund was one of the strongest Noldor and one of the High Kings. He put up a good fight against Sauron magically but was ultimately defeated in a duel of sorcery (Silmarillion Page 202)
Gothmog, one of Morgoth’s most powerful Maia servants, dealt the finishing blow to Feanor (Silmarillion Page 13). It took many Balrogs to get Feanor to the point where that could bring him down, but it shows that they are definitely comparable. Keep in mind that Feanor was superior to Fingolfin and could have thus wounded Crippled Morgoth.
Having multiple Balrogs be comparable to a weakened Morgoth is further supported by their defeating Ungoliant, who was on the verge of overpowering Morgoth (Silmarillion 86-87).
It seems pretty obvious that high-tier Elves and high-tier Maiar are comparable, and that the strongest of each can approach the Valar (which was directly stated in the Silmarillion with respect to the strongest Maiar being "well-nigh as great" as the Valar).
I...Am impressed. I'm considerably more convinced. You should make a Content Revision Thread (Just use copy and paste to add the quotes) and link it to Azathoth. In all my threads, he had the final say in LOTR.
so as i heard that Ancalagon was being exposed by the light radius of the Silmaril for 24 hours to kill him , while the book never say anything about that , as it only say that the battle last for 24 hours before Earendil killed him , so is that a made-up lies or just another possibility
What I didn't realize when I started that thread, that magic in LOTR is pretty Arcane. I don't think we can know exactly how the Silmaril works, but the best guess is it works like a buff to it's wielder.
I see. I'm not sure if I worded it wrong, but the quote and explaination meant that Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord ever before the rise of Sidious. I'm not trying to claim that Plagueis is the most powerful sith ever, just that he should be 4-B seeing he's as good or better than vitiate
It's late where I live so I couldn't read through the whole thing. Still, I could see how someone might think one statment not enough to qualify in a world with so many feats (Where it might in, say, Lord of the Rings).
For some reason I can't comment, so I will put it here:
"I'm still reading this; it seems god so far; never knew Hera was so strong. The only complaint I have is with the format: It's all over the place. You should make it consistent. For instance: Quotes=Bold and italic; headings=bold, and source is the same is quotes."
Kindly refer this thread. Also, Force Lightning in Legends has repeatedly been shown to transform a victim's physical appearance (as noted by Plagueis) and Palpatine has used it on a couple of occasions to outright reduce someone to ash.
It is a basic skill taught to all younglings at the temples. Anyone on Windu's level should be highly proficient with it. Depa Billaba (Windu's former Padawan) has showcased the ability (in Canon) as has Windu's own master (in Legends).
You know how Morgoth is stated on his page to possess the powers of the Balrogs due to them deriving their powers from him. This piqued my curiosity as wouldn't Sauron have, Fear manip, Status Inducement or poison manip for the same reasoning? I look forward to you opinion on this when conveniant.