Honestly speaking, it's difficult to understand the context at all, since I did not read the Manifold Series.
Personally, my criterion for 1-A has always been a clear transcendence and superiority over dimensions/axes/coordinates. Logic, mathematics, science... Such words are too often used to describe weak cosmic beings. Without a clear context for me, I can not clarify anything. If you have infinite dimensions that are cleary subject to mathematical laws, and then there are beings outside of these laws, then most likely they are 1-A.
Azathoth had said in the thread that he does not really support "1-A being inherently beyond math"
its pretty simple really. all things in Manifoldverse are mere consequence of the existence of mathematical logic that underlay all things.
one example : the concept of 'prime numbers' caused the existence of all atoms, stars and other physical matter.
which means all dimensional structures are merely consequences of mathematical concepts, which are all underlyings of reality. in other words, High 1-B multiverse is just mere 'shadows' of mathematical concepts.
so mathematical logic underlying of reality>>>>>>dimensions. conceptual superiority over dimensions.
and Downstreamers can tinker with said mathematical/logic underlyings to create new infinite possibilities (if it were up to me, I'd call it :
create impossibilities, because all possible worlds already exist. DS actually further tinkered with underlyings of reality (1-A 'concepts') to change rules (logic) to make new possibilities.
in other words, through some kind of logic-fuckery, impossibilities now becomes possible).
so DS is superior to mathematics and logic, which in turn, mathematical concepts and logic are conceptually superior to dimensional structures.
so in short, If DS were in fight against another High 1-B, I could just say : "Downstreamers manipulate the very underlying 'concept/mathematical/logic of dimensions' and turn the very Logic of 'dimensions' to become 'noodles'. gg"
so what kind of hax you'd call this kind of conceptually-superior-to-dimensions-and-all-other-logical-concepts manipulation if not 1-A?
Well, I say you understand it good enough if you can get a rough glance at the platonic concept inside my posts.
iirc, there are many 1-As who don't transcend High 1- B hierarchy (Masadaverse has no reference being infinite dimensional iirc).
in fact, I think I can remember someone said that transcending infinite dimensions actually isn't enough to become 1-A, what you need is conceptual superiority over the very concept of 'dimensions', heedless wether its infinite dimensional or not.
and in Downstreamers' case, there's infinite hierarchy, each containing all possible worlds.
by 'all possible worlds' I mean : everything that's logically possible :
account for ALL mathematical possibilities. So everything short of illogical "omnipotence," in theory should be covered, since logic is encompassed by mathematics at its deepest levels. This means all possible multiverses, with all possible laws, under all possible thought, under all possible concepts, as all of those under the premise of a mathematical multiverse are simply permutations of information and mathematics. The Downstreamers are stated to *transcend* this plateau. (this argument is based on multiple quotes saying that "as long as its not illogical (like True Omnipotence), it must and have already existed in Manifold)
in othet words, the platonic mathematical concepts would cover Outerverses and entities of 1-A nature. hence in @Aeyu's thread I linked above, she proposed for At Least 1-A , but got shot down because "very powerful 1-A does not mean At least 1-A".
Well, I think its made clear that Manifoldverse is of platonic nature. containing all logical and modal concepts which can be described through axiomatic math, and thus basically require a 1-A rating ('at least' heh). in which platonic concepts reign supreme.
Downstreamers transcend them all which allowed them for the 'editing' of some kind of 'supreme outerverse' itself to play around with possibilities and impossibilities, transcending both altogether.
so, can I get approval for 1-A revision? Azathoth seems busy and you're the only one replying.
So far. I got interested in umi because of the interesting and diverse cosmology it has. As time grew i continues to read and the more i read the greater it got. And not recently i realized that 07th verse as youd call it is formed of not 1, 2, or 3 VNs but over 10. And possibly a few non canon sources aswell. To my understanding this may be likely the largest and most complex verse ever having to pay attention to so many different things. I know youve been doing alot of hard work and may be a little stressed out from all the umineko related things going on throughout the wiki. So i just wanna say big thanks to you and azzy for all of your hard work regarding this series. Infact because of you two i began reading umi. Heck i may read all of 07th works for the mystery and complexity. But seriously thanks, for all the effort youve put into this. And no ones offering you a dime.
A character starts to do magic hacking on space ships, controlling them like fiddles. then uses some kind of reality warping to transform spaceships into literal space whales, complete with teeths, eyes and fins. then he effortlessly controlled the space whales to do some borderline suicidal maneuvers to act as bait.
The conversations that take place inside spaceships (talked by spaceships crews) while the character is transforming spaceship into space whale is this :
Space inside spaceship gets warped, as if someone was playing playdoh with spacetime itself
“Wave functions is showing unrestrained values!”
“PhysIcal disturbance phenomenon!”
Another character who possess same reslity warping power as character above has demonstrated capability to do body possession on biological living thing like a cat. Said cat is in surface of the planet while the character is in outer space far enough from gravity pull of the planet. Pretty ridiculous mind hacking distance I say.
So, can ypu help in quantifying this wave function thing? Am I right to assume that this feat of manipulating wave function is form of Probability Manipulation?
For additional info, characters’ reality warping power also comes from manipulation of entropy. Entropy reversal is used to create energy to power their machine weapons.
Just here to ask something. You and Azzy are currently plannig to revise Umineko (and the 07th Verse as a whole). Is it possible to send me the same Materials (Scans, translations and your thoughtprocess and interpretation for them) you sended Azzy? This is me being curious, even though i may be not helpful for the revisions.
Totally understand if you cant bother with that. And thank you regardless for your answer!
Sorry, but I do this only in order not to explain things to everyone individually. I want someone to explain something to everyone instead of me. Someone for whom the English is a native language. And it should be a person who really understands how to evaluate high tier beings. Azzy is suitable because he already worked with CM, where cosmology has a lot in common with the 07-verse.
I can answer some individual questions, but you ask me to give you a whole respect thread. I will not do it.
At what layer or domain in umineko do characters transcend all conception. And i mean infinite concepts, all concepts
I do not understand what you mean. "All concepts" means nothing without context. Just like "incomprehensibility" and "omnipotence".
First you have a three-dimensional world. Then there will be far higher additional dimensions and wave functions, scientific theories. Then there will be an illogical and unimaginable level beyond time, space and coordinates. Then there will be transcendental "forms" of concepts and laws that form the lower levels. Then there will be combinations of such things. Then there will be more complex concepts. Then there will be a concept that can not be said for anything other than that it is like infinity (for one whose mind evolved enough to understand the previous things). Then there will be other things that can not be described in any way. Then... Or rather, it is not even "then" because the prospect itself, which shared the previous things is losing its meaning. The "bottom" is no more, there is only a wall of absolute incomprehensibility, the Peak of all things. The whole system comes from a "miracle" (hello, Bern).
And senate also have true forms?
Bern and Lambda are only known senators. Perhaps others also embody some fundamental laws.
And just her avatar creating the entire cosmology. Is this correct?
She did not create "the entire cosmology". Only the cosmologies of individual stories. But almost any higher order being can do the same for lower stories.
Im gonna say this in the non weirdest way possible. But im super interested in your knowledge regarding umineko. Is it possible you have a discord or some other platform where we can like chat? If you dont mind of course
Well, there is a hierarchy of sizeless/dimensionless structures and some cores of the strongest beings who can interase as many perspectives and relative strength as they want, but still can not destroy each other, remaining unlimited by such things.
Also this is the only Japanese verse I know, that actually uses the term Omniverse オムニバース(全実在宇宙).
Yes, this is the end of WN. There will be realm of God, where there is no size/dimensions, and where the growing levels of infinity are just like decorations. And then there are levels above all this realm. The boundless growth of levels of existence and the unlimited growth of one's own power at the current level. And a fundamental nature that can not be surpassed by this or something like that.
I would not compare this with Umineko, where the power levels are a means, not a goal (you can read Umineko simply as a story about Alice in the Wonderland and not even think about cosmology or something like this, the more there you need to read other works to understand cosmology).
I do not quite understand what test players you're talking about. Those people who play the game are just people and nothing more. This whole situation with computer game is just a farce to deceive the main villain. Ruphas aren't trap.
Lucis=the=Lumenian wrote: Huh, that's ... veryheaaavy spoiler/revelation indeed. Okay, I'll stop asking now, its obvious that the plot has progressed so much that I as pure-english reader can't keep up anymore.
I think i can help you ,if you want to know about 野生のラスボスが現れた.