Discussion Rules

Introduction

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. This leads to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calcs, about their validity, reliability, etcetera.

However, certain topics keep popping up repeatedly, generally made by new members, despite being discussed and resolved multiple times in the past. The managing staff has grown weary continuously settling the more controversial issues to rest again and again, and hence have listed a few rules, to limit redundant discussions.

The listed rules are to be followed for discussions (forums), in addition to the site rules.

General Rules

• In the profile talk pages, please sign with your username at the end of your posts, by adding four "~" signs.
• Before starting to argue in the forums, please read the logical fallacies page.
• First check if a certain topic has been handled previously. Since the search function does not work properly yet (the Fandom staff are trying to fix it), you can visit the profile page of a concerned specific character, or verse/franchise/fiction, and check the "See more discussions" link at the bottom right corner of the page for tagged related topics. This usually works more easily.
• Building upon the previous suggestion, make sure to add topics for the "verse" and main characters related to your forum threads, in order to make it easier for other members to find it later on.
• When arguing for changing character statistics, do not assume that the staff will have in-depth knowledge about the fictional franchise in question. Make sure to explain your suggestions in a structured manner that is easy to comprehend. You will not be allowed to change any statistics, if people cannot understand what you mean.
• To reiterate, when creating content revision threads, it is best to keep your suggestions as structured and simple to understand as possible, so the staff will have an easier time evaluating the text. Avoid writing upgrade threads mainly based on assumptions from a limited amount of information, with no additional context or evidence to support them.
• When making sweeping or extremely significant changes to an established and/or popular character or verse, please make a Content Revision Thread first so that it may be evaluated by the Staff and the community at large to ensure that it falls within our guidelines.
• Don't repeatedly quote each other back-and-forth within the forums or message walls. This easily creates a long line of massive posts that make the threads nearly unreadable.
• Generally try to avoid derailing content revision discussion threads from the original topic, We cannot deal with too many different subjects at once, so it is usually better to start a new thread instead.
• The edit sessions generally expire after about 20 minutes, so if you write very long posts, please remember to first save them in a separate text editing program, so they do not disappear after your hard work writing them.

Franchise-Specific Rules

• For the time being, avoid creating content revision threads for the Bleach and Naruto fictions. We are currently preparing major corrections for both franchises.
• Don't complain about Dragon Ball power ratings without explicit feats from the new anime series. We have heard all of the arguments many times before, and are so sick and tired of constantly dealing with it that bringing them up has turned into a block-worthy offence.
• Given that the only explicit gauges that we have to scale the tiers by are from Frieza's first form, and Super Perfect Cell, we had to estimate roughly where in-between that all of the characters would fit during these time periods, as this was the least bad available option. We have spent a massive amount of time arguing about this, and are not willing to waste any more further rearranging the statistics.
• Also do not ask about why we placed Buu saga DBZ characters in the same tier as Super Perfect Cell. The upper border of this tier is roughly a trillion times higher than the bottom.
• Do not discuss about Fusion Reborn Super Saiyan 3 Goku shaking the afterlife, Janemba reality warping and Anime Buuhan Vice Shout as they were discussed and dubunked countless times.
• Regarding Yhwach from Bleach, there have been statements in some chapters misusing the term omnipotence and omniscience (quite common in fiction). Please note that a franchise that does not have anything indicating beyond planet level feats will NOT be upgraded to Tier 2 or above under any circumstances.
• Also, please do not try use Gin Ichimaru's supposed Bankai speed to support a speed upgrade, as this discussion has grown tiresome from being repeatedly argued and debunked.
• The possibility for Madara Uchiha and the rest of the Naruto franchise characters to move at light speed has already been discussed and debunked repeatedly. Currently, any repetition of said discussion is highly annoying, and bar presence of a new canon movie, not subject to discussion.
• Do not attempt to upgrade Naruto to sub-relativistic speed, especially based on feats from Naruto, The Last. This is an extremely exhausted topic that has been repeatedly addressed and denied on the basis of abuse of cimematic timing.
• Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Kaguya to Star level or above. We have exhausted the topic and decided it's inconsistent with the franchise's overall showing of power and thus it is now typically viewed as an outlier. Also, it was similarly decided that Kaguya should not be granted planet level attack potency for her casual attacks, as the only scene where this rating would be warranted is strife with PIS and a lack of feats, thus forcing us to rate her at this level only via the Expansive Truth-Seeker Ball. Insistence of this will be unappreciated. Also, although at least one of her pocket realms was confirmed to contain a star, the relative size of it was deemed questionable, and it was discarded as a result.
• When upgrading Naruto and Sasuke, please refrain from powerscaling to the Sage of Sixth Paths. As discussed here due to the likelihood of the Sage creating the Moon with aid, thus placing him in a lower range of "Small Planet level" than previously believed, it would not affect their current ratings, as they were depicted to have gained half of this power. This is validated by their own feat, and appropriate calculation.
• Do not try to upgrade Toneri to Moon level, as a discussion regarding this was held here.
• Avoid using the Naruto databook descriptions or statements from the manga about the Juubi, or otherwise, to attempt to upgrade the verse. These sources are typically not consistent and/or hyperbole and thus their contents are questionable at best.
• We consider the Boruto manga as canon since it is more linear to follow than the Anime, and in addition the latter can be hard to judge for scaling purposes. Shino, who fought with the Juubi spawn, was surpassed by ninjas at the level of Boruto, which is inconsistent, and they fought and defeated a creature that Sai and Kakashi had problem to fight with. Boruto also received a lot of powerups that he has not received in the manga.
• Please delay the making of content revisions based on the Boruto manga until a particular, relevant arc has concluded. The manga is still in the beginning stages of development making it difficult to accurately review feats.
• Do not try to level up Johnny Joestar from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure to 2-A just because he "hits with the force of infinite universes". This is an extremely biased and contradicted interpretation of how his powers work. Also do not try to upgrade Giorno Giovanna beyond Low 2-C. He was placed where he is post consultation from DarkLK, who devised the tiering system in effect.
• Don't try to level up Yu Yu Hakusho to casual planet busters, as this has also previously been discussed over and over and has turned redundant.
• Please avoid trying to upgrade To Aru characters to Tier 1-A or above, as this is also highly contradicted by other parts of this work of fiction.
• Don't argue for upgrading Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann characters to 2-A or High 1-C. We have talked about this several times already. For example here, and here.
• Do NOT post any threads or comments about Saitama being limitless, omnipotent, or that "he is a gag character who is never meant to lose". This is an illogical line of reasoning that does not fit in with our system, employs a very liberal use of no-limits fallacy, and defeats the base purpose of indexing character statistics. Please note that due to the highly repetitive nature of this particular discussion, failure to follow this rule may result in a block without any particular warning.
• Avoid trying to upgrade Saitama to Star level based on statements from the databook. It has been discussed repeatedly that there are two translations for the Japanese word 星 (Hoshi). It can mean either Planet or Star, and the former is far more consistent with the events of the story and Saitama's own statements.
• Don't argue about Elder God Demonbane being "beyond omnipotence". For one thing, that is not conceptually possible, and for another, it is still dependent on using the sleeping Azathoth as a power source. We are not going to change its tier. In addition, "DYN Freaks" does not fit into the original Demonbane continuity, due to operating on an enormously lower level of reality than the original, and apparently ignoring the aforementioned power difference.
• Furthermore, do not attempt to downgrade Demonbane based on Twitter comments from Jin Haganeya. He wrote the series 13 years ago, and has deviated greatly from the established scale with DYN Freaks, so he probably misremembers, or has greatly changed his mind over time. In addition, his mastery of English is limited, which makes accurate communication difficult. We also do not know how serious he is, and Twitter is an extremely unreliable medium for in-depth explanations, etcetera. As such, our standard rules for severe contradictions between a series itself and statements from the author apply, and we have to use the established original canon (borrowed from the Cthulhu Mythos) to estimate the power levels for the franchise. For further information, see here, here, and here.
• Do not attempt to upgrade The Presence/Yahweh from DC Comics to tier 0, simply because he is stated to be omnipotent and is the verse's depiction of the monotheistic god. This topic has been discussed extensively in the past, and it has been concluded that the Presence has shown far too many limitations (Such as equals or near equals in power in Elaine Belloc and The Great Evil Beast, stating that he was created by human imagination, being mere fiction to Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, being severely damaged by Gabriel Hornblower, and being healed by Michael Demiurgos) to be ranked as anything beyond his 1-A rating. Also keep in mind that statements of omnipotence are never accepted as proof.
• Do not attempt to upgrade Dormammu, Umar, Eternity, and all of the other Marvel Comics cosmic entities to tier 1-A, based on a single mention within the 2005 "Defenders" series, given that it would enormously contradict virtually everything else known about the characters.
• Do not attempt to upgrade the pre-retcon Beyonder to 1-A, due to two instances in which the Beyond-Realm was described as being beyond time and space of the universe or multiverse. The Beyonder himself has been described as infinite-dimensional in a far more reliable and explicit narration, and been referred to as only possessing power millions of times greater than the Marvel multiverse. In addition, his realm in itself has been described as a multiverse, which automatically implies that it is a construct of space and time. If he truly qualified for 1-A, none of these claims could have been true, so we must interpret the former as simply, at best, being a greater degree of High 1-B than the regular multiverse. This topic has been brought up numerous times in the past, and as such only serves as an annoyance to the staff.
• Do not attempt to upgrade The Living Tribunal to 1-A. As the sum totality of the abstract entities within the Marvel multiverse, it is explicitly a creature constructed of space and time, and as such cannot exceed High 1-B per definition. Any handbook comparisons with Oblivion are considered as unreliable and ill-considered, as Oblivion explicitly vastly transcends such limitations.
• Also do not attempt to upgrade Galactus to 1-A, based on "Spider-Man and the Secret Wars". The story is not a part of continuity any more than "Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet" or "Captain America and the Korvac Saga", which were released in conjunction, as part of the same imprint. In addition, if you read the entire comicbook, rather than an out-of-context scan, you clearly see that the Enchantress is not referring to Galactus being beyond all concepts of dimensions of time and space altogether, but about his infinite real size compared to the cosmos, how he can affect lots of different aspects of existence with his reality-warping powers, and since she and Spider-Man are strictly physical entities, they only perceive a small part of his entire being. See here for more information. It would also contradict everything else that we know about Galactus.
• Do not make Marvel Cinematic Universe revision threads discussing scaling Captain America to Iron Man from their fight in the "Civil War" movie, as this has been discussed many times before, and strongly contradicts the established scale of their respective feats.
• Do not try to upgrade or set specific tiers to Ajimu Najimi or Iihiko Shishime from Medaka Box. Given that they come from a meta-fictional parody manga, that mostly revolves around deconstructing, circumventing, dissecting, and exaggerating plot conveniences, and does not remotely make sense from a power-scaling perspective, their statistics are too hard to gauge. For the same reasons, also avoid using them in match-up threads.
• Do not argue for upgrading Bastard!! characters to be 4-Dimensional, or above. This has been previously handled here, and here. Also, do not argue for upgrading its high tiers to 3-A without solid new evidence. Note that this scan is not sufficient proof to upgrade any of the cast to 3-A, as it was already looked over, discussed, and debunked here, here, and here.
• Do not attempt to downgrade the Kirby characters without new evidence and arguments. Among other things, we have discussed the issue here, here, and here.
• Do not attempt to upgrade Bayonetta to universe level. We have talked extensively about this topic here, here, here, and here.
• Do not attempt to upgrade the game version of Sonic the Hedgehog to tier Low 2-C, or Immeasurable speed, based on his feats of battling the Time Eater or Solaris. These are generally massive oddities compared with his normal statistics, and thus are seen as significant outliers, as has been discussed repeatedly
• Please refrain from upgrading Mario and Luigi to Dreamy Bowser and/or the Zeekeeper. The Super Mario Bros franchise has wildly varying statistics and feats across different games, which make powerscaling characters already difficult. Given that this is the second 2-B feat in the entire series, it is generally considered as an outlier.
• Please avoid arguing about the size of the universe in Dragon Ball GT. The guidebooks clearly state that it only contains 4 galaxies. Among other threads, this topic has been discussed here, and here.
• Do not attempt to upgrade the Toriko character Acacia/Neo to Multi-Galaxy level, based on an Outlier that contradicts every other established feat from the main cast.
• Please do not attempt to downgrade Kingdom Hearts on the basis of Xemnas' boss fight and subsequent skyscraper throwing. Logic and scaling through the lore is a far better indicator of the series' overall power as like many RPGs, the vast majority of events lack direct physical destruction or area of effect.

Other Rules

• Site Rules
• Editing Rules
• Versus Thread Rules
• Chat Rules